RC45 - Bugger to start - bugger to fix

[ydsparts]

8 hours ago, hollo said:

Thanks for the suggestions . The plugs in it are as per the manual ( CR9EHIX-9 , I think ? )as it previously had much shorter in length racing plugs in it. The thought was that when they were changed to standard plugs and fixed it the starting issue first time , as the racing plugs were shorter and designed for sustained high revs the spark was not sparking in the ideal place for cold starting and normal road riding.

The previous owner had the injectors cleaned when new seals were fitted , and this must of been less than 1000 miles ago , which is why I'm leaning towards the spark, or lack off possible cause. As I said at the beginning once it warmed up it starts on the button which in my mind just adds to the confusion , as it's not a constant problem .

Throw the Iridium plugs in the bin and fit the stock plugs which wouldn't be iridium one. Iridium in carbed and early fuel injected bikes will fuck themselves with the fuel that is sloshed in and fail easily. Once you foul them, they will not come back. The RC45 injection runs richer up to 60 degrees where it leans off as well so very basic.

Edited February 12, 2023 by ydsparts

[Superdunc]

1 hour ago, ydsparts said:

Throw the Iridium plugs in the bin and fit the stock plugs which wouldn't be iridium one. Iridium in carbed and early fuel injected bikes will fuck themselves with the fuel that is sloshed in and fail easily. Once you foul them, they will not come back. The RC45 injection runs richer up to 60 degrees where it leans off as well so very basic.

This man speaketh sense.

[Thunderbolt]

@hollo please are there any other snippets that are relevant as it’s really difficult to help when not knowing the full picture.

Oh and don’t fit Brisk plugs.

[franky]

have you tried it without the power commander? is it as simple as over fueling when the engines cold? Or can you put a zero map in the power commander?

[bogman]

Kill it with fire 

[stretch]

On 2/10/2023 at 7:31 AM, bignige said:

Yet my RC46 has been faultless.

🙈🙉🙊

It's 1 better!

[stretch]

On 2/10/2023 at 12:36 PM, marvin said:

That’s because it’s 1 betterer 

Shit!

[hollo]

Thanks for the help so far . I'm 90% sure the plugs in it are Iridium ones , but will double check when I replace them- thanks for the tip on this.

With regards the power commander , the previous owner had the same cold starting problem , which is before my ownership and me getting it hard wired in . As part of the tests to try and fix it , it was disconnected , but it didn't make any difference . 

I may try to sweet talk a fellow 45 owner to see if we either , I can borrow his CDI or try my CDI in his bike , just to rule it out. 

[426hemi]

I had iridium plugs in my rsv for a short time, couple of hundred miles and it started misfiring, swapped back to standard and it’s been fine ever since.

[bignige]

I put Iridium plugs in my ten year old Corolla and they worked a treat.

🙂

[svingel]

On 2/12/2023 at 8:13 AM, 2moto said:

OK, here is an idea. Replace the coolant temperature sensor with a resistor with the value of a warm engine. That would tell you whether it has something to do with the ECUs cold start function.

This might be something. An otherwise bombproof Yaris developed a cold starting issue, which turned out to be a semi-, then fully fukked coolant temperature sensor. The ECU didn't register the engine as "cold", so did not supply the extra fuel needed. Toyota knows a thing or two about building engines that run forever, so I did take it as hint to how vital the extra fuel, or rather the cold start mapping is. It might include different ignition mapping as well

[hollo]

Thanks , the previous owner changed the coolant sensor so I don't think it's that . I'm no expert but think are pointing towards a ECU/CDI cold start fault . As far as I know there is no way to test 'em . Again the previous owner borrowed a ECU off of another bike , so it may be the CDI , I just don't know .    

[MATSTAR]

@hollo Have a look here:

https://www.carmo.nl// (they have a UK depot)

[hawkati]

On 2/19/2023 at 7:02 PM, hollo said:

Thanks , the previous owner changed the coolant sensor so I don't think it's that . I'm no expert but think are pointing towards a ECU/CDI cold start fault . As far as I know there is no way to test 'em . Again the previous owner borrowed a ECU off of another bike , so it may be the CDI , I just don't know .    

Please change the plugs first, and have a damn good look at that 30 year old fuel pump?

[ydsparts]

Change the fuel filter as well as I have seen them collapse internally and cause strange problems as well.

[hollo]

22 hours ago, hawkati said:

Please change the plugs first, and have a damn good look at that 30 year old fuel pump?

My only issue in whacking in a new set of plugs in between myself and the previous owner this will be the 6th set of new plugs to cure the cold start issue . Yes the new plugs cure the symptoms for a period of time , but they don't cure the underlying problem - hence my post of throwing it open to the forum knowledge.

The fuel pump was pushing out the correct pressure when tested , but it may be worth a look.

Mike 

     

[Thunderbolt]

Look, hire a van, put the bike in it, drive to PDQ, ask them nicely to fix it.

[Gobert]

23 minutes ago, hollo said:

My only issue in whacking in a new set of plugs in between myself and the previous owner this will be the 6th set of new plugs to cure the cold start issue . Yes the new plugs cure the symptoms for a period of time , but they don't cure the underlying problem - hence my post of throwing it open to the forum knowledge.

The fuel pump was pushing out the correct pressure when tested , but it may be worth a look.

Mike 

     

Have any of the 6 sets been non-iridium ones?

[2moto]

1 hour ago, hollo said:

My only issue in whacking in a new set of plugs in between myself and the previous owner this will be the 6th set of new plugs to cure the cold start issue . Yes the new plugs cure the symptoms for a period of time , but they don't cure the underlying problem - hence my post of throwing it open to the forum knowledge.

The fuel pump was pushing out the correct pressure when tested , but it may be worth a look.

Mike 

     

In which case, you got to ask what kills the plugs? My guess is too much fuel. 

[ydsparts]

On 2/21/2023 at 8:21 PM, hollo said:

My only issue in whacking in a new set of plugs in between myself and the previous owner this will be the 6th set of new plugs to cure the cold start issue . Yes the new plugs cure the symptoms for a period of time , but they don't cure the underlying problem - hence my post of throwing it open to the forum knowledge.

The fuel pump was pushing out the correct pressure when tested , but it may be worth a look.

Mike 

     

Does the bike run and start fine after a new set of plugs? Get the Iridium ones in the bin and stick some nice CR9Es in. How many miles does it last before the problem reoccurs? Do you start it up in the garage and let it idle at all to heat up over the winter?

[ydsparts]

As soon as the Iridiums smell a quite rich mixture and foul, they are fucked. I have had nothing but bother with them when they have been in used in older bikes. They are nothing but hassle.

[MonkeyJim]

On 2/9/2023 at 11:07 PM, hawkati said:

 

If it's still a problem, maybe upgrade to some 'for Christ's sake come on'

 

[hollo]

Thanks again for the pointers , so my evil plan is....

1 / I'll get the CDI tested and checked , for just over 40 quid I think its worth it even if its just to rule it out

2 / Fit new standard CR9E plugs in - I can also check if its currently got iridium ones in at the moment from the info above - I'm kind of hoping that it has.

See if the standard plugs cure the cold start problem longer term or not. Thrash the bejesus out of it at every opportunity and take it to the Classic bike track day at Donington at the end of July

3 / If I get back to square one , As per the advice above stick the piece of HRC shite in a van and take it to a professional- possibly PDQ as they are very local me , or try somewhere else .

Mike .     

[2639]

There are a few more simpler information establishing the gs you can do.

2) cr9e sounds sensible. Remember hot plugs for 'cold' (utalitarian) engines and vice versa. If it starts even easier on cr6 or 7. NB 'hot' engines can melt hot plugs, which can cause big damage. So excessive hot plugs , a 2 or 3 might fail. 

Whilst the cr9es are in, a garden spray mist of petrol into the airbox lid ought to aid it starting when it's cold and marginal... everything will need cold start enrichment. If yours has been flashed and it doesnt include this for silly reasons... daft operator,  or its come from the equator. I wouldn't use start yer bastid spray. Keep one less variable out of it. Spray mist of petrol.into the intake.

You can get mini stand alone AFR gauges to help with sorting carburattion. Supply 12v, affix probe up exhaust pipe, commence testing. This could be a cheap  and easy way of knowing if you have a rich mixture at cold start. From what YDS said, you ought to see a lean off at 60 deg C. This will tell you if the ecu and the temp sensing is behaving.

Where does the bike live and when is it used? If it behaves itself in summer, but wont start now.... 

Leaving it alone, try to start it and record how it behaves. How it coughs. Use a stop watch. Recharge battery, return following morning... but either store the bike somewhere warm, in the house,  or heat the bike up.... make shift tent, big box and a electric heater on low. Less conclusive, but again clues to cold warm up mapping.

I have no experience of 45s... nor 30s. 

Coil replacement suggests it's not spark supply. Previous work suggests its.not fuel.pressure related, but the AFR gauge will.also double check here

The spark plug length bit is interesting. Changes suggest someone has been trying stuff. Since its.not really.the first place to start, although most unlikely, I suppose it's just possible some head work has been done and some spacers or inserts have altered the plug thread length. Most unlikely, but possible.

Thinking out loud. If its gear driven cams, the heads have been skimmed, the gear clearances re set, but the cam position sensor is now reading a skewed can trigger point. Unlikely to be this convoluted. But if it's an ex development rat racer with shiny unused road bodywork atop all the didnt work but arent dead engine pieces, prettying itvup before sale... possible.

Coils. I know they're new. Are they earthed well. You've not got fresh powder coating. Nor any copper slip or anodised Al bolts ( I think these inhibit conductivity, maybe, comments welcome, tired) on the coil bolts. Again, small individually, but something is adding up to it being a nuisance.

Electrical contact cleaner and check/abrade the injection sub loom plugs. This probably contains the temperature sensing circuitry.

[hollo]

and here's an update of the glacial pace I work at ,

I send the CDI off to be tested and it came back with a clean bill of health , so about 3 months after buying a set of standard CR9 plugs , I fitted them I and can confirm that it did have the posh iridium ones fitted , which looking at them , they don't look too bad , but I'm not expert.

Using my rudimentary set of tools, the two extensions on my ratchet were either too short and no use at all or too long which made things 'interesting' . It looks like I've either been in fight club ( but I'm not allowed to talk about it ) or into self harming , which to be far isn't that far from the truth.

So to the big moment......on first start up , no real difference , it's still takes 7 or 8 goes on the starter for it to fire up . Once warm it's perfect .

Fucking thing.

So the plan is just to put up with it for this summer , as it's still a very special bike which when on song just feels perfect and does give me a tingly feeling .Once the summer is over , spunk away more money with someone more clever-er than me to try and fix it during the winter- bugger

Mike 

 

  

[CMSMJ1]

21 hours ago, hollo said:

and here's an update of the glacial pace I work at ,

I send the CDI off to be tested and it came back with a clean bill of health , so about 3 months after buying a set of standard CR9 plugs , I fitted them I and can confirm that it did have the posh iridium ones fitted , which looking at them , they don't look too bad , but I'm not expert.

Using my rudimentary set of tools, the two extensions on my ratchet were either too short and no use at all or too long which made things 'interesting' . It looks like I've either been in fight club ( but I'm not allowed to talk about it ) or into self harming , which to be far isn't that far from the truth.

So to the big moment......on first start up , no real difference , it's still takes 7 or 8 goes on the starter for it to fire up . Once warm it's perfect .

Fucking thing.

So the plan is just to put up with it for this summer , as it's still a very special bike which when on song just feels perfect and does give me a tingly feeling .Once the summer is over , spunk away more money with someone more clever-er than me to try and fix it during the winter- bugger

Mike 

 

  

Piece of cardboard ziptie to the rad will prevent them scabby knuckles... Been there and done that!

[fastfreddybikes2]

21 hours ago, hollo said:

and here's an update of the glacial pace I work at ,

I send the CDI off to be tested and it came back with a clean bill of health , so about 3 months after buying a set of standard CR9 plugs , I fitted them I and can confirm that it did have the posh iridium ones fitted , which looking at them , they don't look too bad , but I'm not expert.

Using my rudimentary set of tools, the two extensions on my ratchet were either too short and no use at all or too long which made things 'interesting' . It looks like I've either been in fight club ( but I'm not allowed to talk about it ) or into self harming , which to be far isn't that far from the truth.

So to the big moment......on first start up , no real difference , it's still takes 7 or 8 goes on the starter for it to fire up . Once warm it's perfect .

Fucking thing.

So the plan is just to put up with it for this summer , as it's still a very special bike which when on song just feels perfect and does give me a tingly feeling .Once the summer is over , spunk away more money with someone more clever-er than me to try and fix it during the winter- bugger

Mike 

 

  

Yeah as a fellow procrastinator never do anything today that can be put off till at least 6 months down the line. Plus dead of winter is the very best time to get a bike professionally looked at. You have my full blessing.

[hollo]

4 hours ago, CMSMJ1 said:

Piece of cardboard ziptie to the rad will prevent them scabby knuckles... Been there and done that!

Yep , thanks for the tip , I worked that out once the blood was running down the back of my hand

[lorenzo]

I wouldn't be 100% certain about this being your issue, but it would be worth looking into getting your injectors ultrasonically cleaned. It doesn't cost a fortune, and it will certainly make your bike run smoother. My logic is that one of the injectors might not be closing fully, which then means it can't get up to full pressure and it doesn't mix your fuel & air too well. 

[hollo]

On 5/29/2023 at 8:41 AM, lorenzo said:

I wouldn't be 100% certain about this being your issue, but it would be worth looking into getting your injectors ultrasonically cleaned. It doesn't cost a fortune, and it will certainly make your bike run smoother. My logic is that one of the injectors might not be closing fully, which then means it can't get up to full pressure and it doesn't mix your fuel & air too well. 

Thanks, the injectors were cleaned and the seals replaced by the previous owner to try and cure the problem , and I'd of thought it would be less than 500 miles ago . It is on the list of things to do as a possible cause of the cold start problem.