Chrisa112 Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Hi all, Tried getting help for this from a few other places but not getting a lot of results...So to the masters I have come. Quick back story: Stator/Generator on my Triumph Street Triple burnt out and due to the bike being too far out of warranty, Triumph wouldn't do a free repair on it (even though I'm sure it was related to the Reg/Rec). So ordered a new Reg/Rec and Stator from Electrex World (Triumph were asking extortionate amounts). Fitted the parts and got the bike back together...Started on the button! SUCCESS. Alas, whilst idling it just died. And has been doing so, intermittently ever since. Possible causes I'm thinking are CPS (Crank Position Sensor) but I'm not really sure how it can only be affecting it at idle. Bike has been stood for about two months, bad fuel? Dirty injector or something? Any help would be appreciated as not riding is getting me down! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorenzo Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Personally, I'd got over every electrical connector on the bike with dielectric grease. My 675 had very little, if any, on any of the connectors, most of them had some degree of corrosion on there. Even if it doesn't sort your issue, it's not going to be a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwakbiker Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Could be unrelated to the stator/reg-rec.....check the side stand/clutch switch, certain bumpiness could be enough to set off a short and cut out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorenzo Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 True. Mine had an intermittent sidestand switch after heavy rain. And an intermittent alarm. And indicators. And horn. Actually, talking of the alarm, if you don't use it much, it might be worthwhile bearing in mind that they're stupidly easy (15 minutes if you're doing a neat job) to totally remove the standard datatool one. If you google alarm issues on them, you get quite a few. I removed mine as it'd go off if you ever get it even slightly wet, and would continue going off for about 5 hours, at random moments, throughout the night. It was fucking useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisa112 Posted August 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Ah so that's the grease they use. That's a good idea that, should've done that sooner! I'll check out the sidestand but I think that's OK as I was witnessing the problem with the bike just idling on the paddock stand. In fact just thinking, the stand would only cut out the bike in gear. Mine dies in neutral. Someone suggested the battery might have been damaged from the old stator burning out but it is only a month or so old and seems to be holding charge fine. Also got no alarm for that exact reason Lorenzo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggy411 Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 I had a datatool too. Fucking thing used to cut the engine randomly. £20 gets it removed. Easiest place to start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisa112 Posted August 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 I had a datatool too. Fucking thing used to cut the engine randomly. £20 gets it removed. Easiest place to start Yeah I did say above I don't have an alarm fitted at all though haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantmotox Posted August 11, 2014 Report Share Posted August 11, 2014 Maybe its running on 3 cylinders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilchicken0 Posted August 11, 2014 Report Share Posted August 11, 2014 Does it die when youre riding it or when you stop and it should idle ? When youre riding would point to an electric issue but if it dies when it should idle that would most likely be fuel. Because it's injection (?) I can only say to clean the injectors but it could be the TPS needs adjusting or generally it needs a service / setting up, y'know balancing and adjusting and then have the idle set up. Could you have jiggled anything when you repaired it ? Go back and check Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisa112 Posted August 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2014 Does it die when youre riding it or when you stop and it should idle ? When youre riding would point to an electric issue but if it dies when it should idle that would most likely be fuel. Because it's injection (?) I can only say to clean the injectors but it could be the TPS needs adjusting or generally it needs a service / setting up, y'know balancing and adjusting and then have the idle set up. Could you have jiggled anything when you repaired it ? Go back and check Nope, doesn't die when riding (I've only been out for a short ride though, say 20mins or so). Will just sit and idle and then die randomly. I've filled tank with super unleaded and some Redex because I thought the same about the injectors being a bit clogged up. Not expecting a miracle cure but it might help! Servicing it should be OK (though it is due it's 30,000 mile one now which is a minor IIRC). Obviously the bike's just had new oil and filter due to replacing stator. Could have knocked a few connectors under the tank, so will go over them again too! Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisa112 Posted August 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 It's gotten worse....Bike wont start at all! Starter spins all day long just doesn't fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorenzo Posted August 14, 2014 Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 In a way it's good (I'm trying to be positive here, OK) as it now gives you a chance to suss out what the fault is properly. Do you have a spark? Do you hear the fuel pump prime before you try and start it up? I assume all of the basics are checked out like there's plenty of oomph in the battery (if it's turning over repeatedly, then yes, you're fine). I can't remember if the kill switch stops it turning over or just stops the spark, but if that's making no difference when you switch it on & off, give it a good soak of wd40. I also used to find that the clutch switch used to slip back into the clutch lever boss, which caused issues, could be worth making sure that's sensing when the lever's in OK. You've a crank position sensor which tells the ECU when to spark, if you've no spark, that's where I'd be starting. I assume it's got no power commander on it? If it does, make sure that's properly grounded too. I'd also have a look at making sure the throttle position sensor is set up correctly. Here's some things to have a think about. Best of luck, and if you have any other info, what you've checked and what you're not sure about, let us know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanWinkle Posted August 14, 2014 Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 Hi all, Tried getting help for this from a few other places but not getting a lot of results...So to the masters I have come. Quick back story: Stator/Generator on my Triumph Street Triple burnt out and due to the bike being too far out of warranty, Triumph wouldn't do a free repair on it (even though I'm sure it was related to the Reg/Rec). So ordered a new Reg/Rec and Stator from Electrex World (Triumph were asking extortionate amounts). Fitted the parts and got the bike back together...Started on the button! SUCCESS. Alas, whilst idling it just died. And has been doing so, intermittently ever since. Possible causes I'm thinking are CPS (Crank Position Sensor) but I'm not really sure how it can only be affecting it at idle. Bike has been stood for about two months, bad fuel? Dirty injector or something? Any help would be appreciated as not riding is getting me down! My guess would be that it may well be to do with the part you have fitted and damaged wiring from when the part fried itself, that is where I would start fault finding, I certainly cant see it being bad fuel, it takes an age for fuel to go off.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorenzo Posted August 14, 2014 Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 If the only fault was the charging system, and you've replaced that, then I don't see how it could be an issue with what it's doing now, especially if it's turning over fine. If the charging system was to be knackered the first symptom would be that it wouldn't turn over, you'd just get a click then blank clocks (says the guy that went through 3 reg/recs on his 675). VW's probably on the right lines though, I'd be looking at what's around where you've been messing. The TPS is on the other side of the throttles, so I doubt it's that, I can't remember where the crank pick up is, but the fuel pump is in the tank, which I'd guess you've lifted up when doing the charging system. I'd make sure that not only the fuel pipe is on properly but also the electrics to the pump itself. Like I said, if you suss out if it's fuel or spark related then you're going to be half way there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewbie Posted August 14, 2014 Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 I'll help you out and take it off your hands Chris. I expect £45 will see us sorted. Not sure when I can pick it up yet, but we'll work that out. Pleasure doing business with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisa112 Posted August 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 Right, can answer some of those questions at the mo, some I will be answer later tonight after working on bike more. Sparking - Not sure yet, checking tonight. Fuel Pump - Primes when engaging ignition as usual, nothing untoward there. Battery - had 12.9V in it before I tried starting it the first time (The new stator and reg/rec are seemingly working OK too as when running the bike was sending 14.5V to the battery on 1K revs or more) Kill switch - will not let bike spin starter so it's not that Clutch Switch - same as above Sidestand switch - same as above (checked operation and sprayed with WD40 just in case) Power Commander - None fitted, just a Bazzaz QS4 - no issues there. Wiring - a lot of wiring is replaced when replacing the stator/CPS and regrec, other than the bits that are part of the actual bike loom. this isnt an issue anyway, I believe, as the charging system is now working correctly and as it should be. CPS...Now this is where I have some slight niggle in my head. The CPS is part of the stator/generator unit so that gets replaced along with the stator itself. The OEM Triumph part was, obviously, a perfect fit inside the alternator casing (where the whole unit is bolted in). The pattern part I got from Electrex was a slightly tighter fit - the CPS wire was a tiny bit shorter and when I screwed the CPS down it will have put the wire under some tension...I just hope it's not pulled a wire loose inside the CPS unit (it's all sealed and everything so unless a wire fully pulled out I wouldnt notice). Bit hard to explain without the pictures (cant access them at work) so I'll try upload them later when I get home. Thanks again for the help guys...Can see me owing people a few beers when this gets sorted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorenzo Posted August 14, 2014 Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 The CPS is physically in the same box as the generator? Wow. That's the first place I'd be looking then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanWinkle Posted August 14, 2014 Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 The CPS is physically in the same box as the generator? Wow. That's the first place I'd be looking then. Yep, think i would be looking there too. You've not done something silly like trapping a fuel or vacuum pipe when refitting the tank and you have cut the fuel flow off?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisa112 Posted August 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 The CPS is physically in the same box as the generator? Wow. That's the first place I'd be looking then. Well it's all within the same engine casing, yeah. The CPS seems to sense off the rotar that spins around the stator. Pain in the arse to check that because 1) have to empty bike of oil again and make sure I dont damage the new gasket I've put on and 2)I'm not even sure how to check that the CPS is or isnt working - other than checking ECU fault codes which I hope to do tomorrow or on the weekend. The CPS is just a small sealed black box with two wires coming out of it. Someone has told me about their CPS going and had similar problems but they also had thair EML light lit...Which mine is currently not. Yep, think i would be looking there too. You've not done something silly like trapping a fuel or vacuum pipe when refitting the tank and you have cut the fuel flow off?. Checked these last night actually, fuel pipe is OK as are the vacuum and overflow pipes (as best I could see anyway). Also, if either of those were a problem, it wouldnt've been running OK under load/with the revs up surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanWinkle Posted August 14, 2014 Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 Well it's all within the same engine casing, yeah. The CPS seems to sense off the rotar that spins around the stator. Pain in the arse to check that because 1) have to empty bike of oil again and make sure I dont damage the new gasket I've put on and 2)I'm not even sure how to check that the CPS is or isnt working - other than checking ECU fault codes which I hope to do tomorrow or on the weekend. The CPS is just a small sealed black box with two wires coming out of it. Someone has told me about their CPS going and had similar problems but they also had thair EML light lit...Which mine is currently not. Checked these last night actually, fuel pipe is OK as are the vacuum and overflow pipes (as best I could see anyway). Also, if either of those were a problem, it wouldnt've been running OK under load/with the revs up surely? Would do untill the point when starvation set in, once the engine isnt running then the pressure would return to normal and allow fuel to flow again until starvation sets in again. ( Try starting it with the fuel cap open) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilchicken0 Posted August 14, 2014 Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 It sounds like a wire or block connector opening up and then coming free. Might be a wire under the seat / tank that got pulled when everything went back together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisa112 Posted August 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 Right small update: New battery made no difference whatsoever (as suspected). Checked all [relevant] connections under tank, none seemed loose or 'broken'. Tried starting the bike with the tank open too to check vacuum, didn't help.Still to check sparks and the CPS itself. Did a quick check of resistance of the CPS which came out at 487Ω. Not really sure what I'm meant to get but at least it's not a short! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorenzo Posted August 15, 2014 Report Share Posted August 15, 2014 Do you have a haynes? The CPS needs to be within a specific distance of the rotor to suss out its signals; even if the CPS was OK it could just be fitted incorrectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisa112 Posted August 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2014 I do, yeah. Thought it was a set distance that wasnt adjustable? I'll check that out too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisa112 Posted August 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2014 So I checked the resistance of the old CPS (201Ω) compared to that of the new CPS (487Ω)...So I'm going to assume that is the problem - not that I'm sure why the resistance is so different. Also used my mate's ODB2 reader and an Android app to check fault codes and none appeared (not sure how reliable that is though so borrowing TuneECU and a different ODB2 interface tomorrow). Will get on the phone to Electrex on Monday anyway to question the difference in resistance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansp1 Posted August 15, 2014 Report Share Posted August 15, 2014 I know the earlier trumpets were very fussy about the cps setting slightly off topic, do you have an a112? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisa112 Posted August 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 slightly off topic, do you have an a112? Not sure what that is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorenzo Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 Either a small Italian car or a main road in Walthamstow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisa112 Posted August 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Well I took out the Bazzaz quick shifter just to check it wasn't causing a problem (unlikely as it did run for a while initially).. It wasn't. Also no fault codes at all on the bike. So in my eyes its now definitely the CPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansp1 Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Small Italian car Autobianchi A112, i had an Abarth version a good few years back, cracking little thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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