Replacing Piston Rings

[gsxr renegade]

Looking for a bit of advice regarding replacing the piston rings on my bike.

Turns out mine is one that suffers from the well know oil burning issue that plagued some of the early RR8 Firebaldes. While it's not an issue, as i religiously check teh oil level everyday and keep it topped up - it's starting to become a bt of a pin in the arse spending £40 on oil every month, and then spending £50 on an oil and filter when needed.

Apparently the problem was down to a batch of faulty (or rather, sub-standard) piston rings which allowed a small amount of oil to get past and be burnt.

As a result, to ease the pain on my wallet in the long term, I've decided to replace the piston rings and see if that cures the problem. People on various forums report that changing the rings stops the oil burning completely.

Now, i've never replaced piston rings before, or gone anywhere near stripping the enging down that far. That said, i'm confident with my tools and I've got a Haynes manual to guide me so it shouldn't be too much of an issue to actually get them done. I've done my own valve clearance checks before with no issue.

What i'm after, is any tips or advice, or extra things i need to do if i replace the rings.

My plan of action is to gather the required bits over the next month or two and tackle the task over a long weekend as i'll be dropping the engine out of the bike.

So far my list of things i think i need is;

New oil and filter

New coolant

New set of spark plugs (I imagine the old ones will be a bit sooty after buring the oil)

Piston ring compressor tool

the new rings themselves

My questions are;

Will i need to replace anything else in the engine if i'm just fitting new rings?

Will i need to go through any sort of 'running in' procedure after they've been fitted?

As I'll be taking the head apart, will i need a new head gasket or will I be ok re-using the old one?

From what i've read, the prefered method of fitting the rings is so that the gaps in the rings don't line up with each other. I'm assuming i'll be ok keeping the gaps at 90^o intervals of each other? (i.e. ring 1 at 12o clock, ring 2 at 3 o clock, ring 3 at 6 o clock...)

I'm not sure if this is specific to each bike, but does replacing the rings mean taking the piston out of the engine? at each respective TDC, will each piston sit flush with the engine once i've taken the head off?

Any advice is greatly appreciated

edited to add: Sorry for the spelling, i typed in a rush and just can't be arsed to go back and correct it all!

[VanWinkle]

Im sure you will need a set of gaskits too...

[Superdunc]

You'll need a replacement head gasket, and base gasket, the RR8 went to separate barrels, so slide the head and barrel off and leave the pistons on the rods. Spreading the ring gaps out at 120degree intervals is good practice and probably the simplest part of the job.

I don't know the specifics of the blade engine, and whether there are various standard sizes of piston ring, which you need to select to ensure you have the correct end gap, you also need to be very careful with getting the cam timing correct when refitting the cam chain.

You will need to run the new rings into the bores, basically what you do with a brand new bike.

I don't want to put you off, but this is a job for a very competent DIYer, the costs of getting it wrong will be large.

[Wildbill]

Not wishing to piss on your bonfire but the questions you have asked regarding the re-use of the head gasket and the

requirements of removing a piston to replace rings suggest you would be advised to take the engine to a competent mechanic.

It may be possible for you to do the work yourself but without the tools and experience it could be a very steep learning curve indeed.

Look at the workshop manual for your model and see if you can interpret the engine rebuild procedure and specifications.

This will give a pretty good indication if you are up for it or not !

[gsxr renegade]

You'll need a replacement head gasket, and base gasket, the RR8 went to separate barrels, so slide the head and barrel off and leave the pistons on the rods. Spreading the ring gaps out at 120degree intervals is good practice and probably the simplest part of the job.

I don't know the specifics of the blade engine, and whether there are various standard sizes of piston ring, which you need to select to ensure you have the correct end gap, you also need to be very careful with getting the cam timing correct when refitting the cam chain.

You will need to run the new rings into the bores, basically what you do with a brand new bike.

I don't want to put you off, but this is a job for a very competent DIYer, the costs of getting it wrong will be large.

Cheers Dunc.

Setting the cam timing doesn't bother me, i've done valve clearance checks/sim replacement before on one of my previous bikes and had to set the cam timing a few times dong that.

It's just the extra bits like the running in etc. that i'm not 100% sure of.

[gsxr renegade]

Not wishing to piss on your bonfire but the questions you have asked regarding the re-use of the head gasket and the

requirements of removing a piston to replace rings suggest you would be advised to take the engine to a competent mechanic.

It may be possible for you to do the work yourself but without the tools and experience it could be a very steep learning curve indeed.

Look at the workshop manual for your model and see if you can interpret the engine rebuild procedure and specifications.

This will give a pretty good indication if you are up for it or not !

No problem, no bonfire to piss on, any advice is appreciated, even if it's to say "don't do it!"

I was only asking about the head gasket in case it was fine to re-use. I'd planned on getting new gaskets anyway.

I've not read through the sections i need to in detail yet to figure out if i really want to attempt it, but i've got a Honda dealer down the road form me, so i'll be asking them for a quote to see how much they'd charge to replace them if i stripped the engine out myself. If it's only going to be a few hours of labour, then i may as well get them to do it to save the hassle. If it's going to cost loads, i'd be more inclined to do it myself.

I'd like to give it a go (although not damaging the bike is my main priority) as i'm a firm believer in learning by doing and it's something i'd like to sort myself. That said, If it looks like too big a task then i'll give in and get the dealer to sort it for me.

[gsxr renegade]

And here's me constantly talking myself out of buying a 999 because they're not the safest bet as a s/h purchase ! I'd be deeply disappointed if I was having to swap engine internals on such a new machine (As I suspect you possibly are??). Not taking the piss but did you consider chopping it in and cutting your loses?

I've not really considered it tbh, I don't really see it as a problem as such, it's just a pain in the arse having to keep buying oil to top it up.

Honda have said up to 1 litre per 1000kms is not considered abnormal. From very rough calculations, mine does about 1.2litres per 1000kms depending on how I ride.

I also see it as my own fault for not checking properly when I bought it.

[gsxr renegade]

I wouldn't beat yourself up about that one, how could you possibly know or foresee it as being an oil burner? People generally buy Honda's for their build quality as much as anything else, I can't say I'd ever heard anything about this particular model being a bit of a lemon. I had an earlier model Fireblade and it was worlds apart in build quality form the Kwaks and Yamaha's I'd had before it.

TBH, i didn't realise it was an issue until a member on here helpfully PMd me and told me when i mentioned i was thinking of getting one.

As i say, it's not really a pressing issue, the bike doesn't seem to be down on power or anything. It's just annoying haveing to keep ontop of the oil so rigorously. For instance if i go out for a long ride for the day i have to make sure i take a little container of oil with me in case the level drops too low.

It's just a pin in the arse that i'd like sorting.

[Wildbill]

If its something like an outer casing gasket ; you can often get away with re-use on a knocking round the doors bike.

If you were in competition or going touring ; you would replace any suspect gasket.

The cost of the gasket is negligible compared to the cost/hassle of failure.

A head and base gasket is never re-used.

You have loads of work to re-do when they fail.

For the same reason most folk may use a pattern gasket kit but use OEM head/base gaskets.

A Honda dealer will have your pants down; no dealer is known for their reasonable workshop hourly rate.

You would be better finding an independent garage.

None will be interested in putting back together an engine they did not disassemble themselves if that was what you meant.

It is not a complicated task relatively speaking, it just needs a little mechanical acumen and a few one off tools.

It will be a good exercise if you wish to learn but bear in mind;

If the manual states that 1ltr/1000km is acceptable (Yam FZR 1k is the same) then you may not be able to better it by overhauling the engine even with later revised parts.

You may spend a lot of money to save only a small quantity of oil consumption.

If it were mine I would slightly overfill by a small amount to take into account its use.

(somewhat above the line before setting off and somewhere below it after a 3 to 4 hundred mile trip would not worry me in the slightest.)

.

[theo]

Dont use a Haynes Manual. Get the proper Honda Service manual, and use it religiously.

Youll be able to find it online as a download for free.

And for the love of god, keep everything clean and free of dust or crap. I cant stress this enough. Clean everything twice and make sure it is as clean as it can be before it goes back in the engine.

Oh, and always use new gaskets, even though they will be expensive. You don't want to have to strip the whole engine back down just because you were too tight to buy a base gasket of whatever.

[gsxr renegade]

If its something like an outer casing gasket ; you can often get away with re-use on a knocking round the doors bike.

If you were in competition or going touring ; you would replace any suspect gasket.

The cost of the gasket is negligible compared to the cost/hassle of failure.

A head and base gasket is never re-used.

You have loads of work to re-do when they fail.

For the same reason most folk may use a pattern gasket kit but use OEM head/base gaskets.

A Honda dealer will have your pants down; no dealer is known for their reasonable workshop hourly rate.

You would be better finding an independent garage.

None will be interested in putting back together an engine they did not disassemble themselves if that was what you meant.

It is not a complicated task relatively speaking, it just needs a little mechanical acumen and a few one off tools.

It will be a good exercise if you wish to learn but bear in mind;

If the manual states that 1ltr/1000km is acceptable (Yam FZR 1k is the same) then you may not be able to better it by overhauling the engine even with later revised parts.

You may spend a lot of money to save only a small quantity of oil consumption.

If it were mine I would slightly overfill by a small amount to take into account its use.

(somewhat above the line before setting off and somewhere below it after a 3 to 4 hundred mile trip would not worry me in the slightest.)

.

Cheers. Sorry, by take the engine apart, i meant take it out of the bike and strip the loom etc. out of the way and deliver the engine to them that way. Poor wording on my part.

Gaskets will be on my list. As you say, for the sake of a couple of tenners, it's just not worth the risk.

It's getting to the point where i fill it at the start of the week, and it can be almost down to the minimum fill level after 3-400 miles. (I never let it get down to the minimum as i check it daily)

For the sake of £150 for a set of rings, i'd like to give it a go as others have reported replacing the rings with the revised part that Honda brought out on the quiet (The part number changed from '13031-MFL-000' to '13031-MFL-010') has solved the issue completely. and TBH, if it means i'm only having to top up a few hundred ml every 1000kms, rather than doing 1.2litres, i'll be happy.

[gsxr renegade]

Dont use a Haynes Manual. Get the proper Honda Service manual, and use it religiously.

Youll be able to find it online as a download for free.

And for the love of god, keep everything clean and free of dust or crap. I cant stress this enough. Clean everything twice and make sure it is as clean as it can be before it goes back in the engine.

Oh, and always use new gaskets, even though they will be expensive. You don't want to have to strip the whole engine back down just because you were too tight to buy a base gasket of whatever.

Already got one I normally prefer the Haynes for the simpler jobs, but i'll be using a combination of both for something like this.

It'll be spotless - Alongside getting the parts i need, i'll be getting a few new rags and a couple of new, clean, containers to put anything in that i remove and be making sure it's clean before going back in as well as either working one at a time, or having separate containers so i don't go mixing bits from different cylinders up, or mixing up old with new parts.

[theo]

Lovely job

Pressure wash the engine as soon as its out the frame (with all the now open inlets into the engine blanked off as youll not be splitting the cases). It cuts down on all of the possible shit that can enter the engine. Also, youll get less dirty too.

[gsxr renegade]

Lovely job

Pressure wash the engine as soon as its out the frame (with all the now open inlets into the engine blanked off as youll not be splitting the cases). It cuts down on all of the possible shit that can enter the engine. Also, youll get less dirty too.

Ooh, that's good idea. Hadn't thought of that.

[Kayla]

Might it be possible the barrels need to be honed? If the engine has been burning oil it may be the sub-standard rings not sealing properly has led to the bores glazing over. If they do need to be honed, when you run the top end in run it in hard-

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

You'll need glasses after reading it but a few TRX owners who've done the rings and valve seals on their engines report very little oil use after running their engines like that. It's a totally different engine, I know, but maybe worth bearing in mind.

[Wildbill]

Laying stripped components out on newspaper in the order of dis-assembly makes the rebuild easy; the witness marks left by the oil that drains from the part can be used to identify in which order they return if the parts get scattered.

Use cardboard with holes punched in as a means to stop bolts/fixings being mixed up.

Don't forget to hone the barrels before new rings are fitted and use a mineral oil for the initial running in before reverting to the recommended oil.

Get some cheap ring compressors or make them.

[BudgetBoy]

Just done this on a zxr400. But i honed the cylinders to give a better finish. Then as Dunc says run the engine in like you would a new bike.. Jobs a goodun.

Edit:- Have you done a comp test & leakdown test?

I only ask as it "Might" not be your rings..(How do you know?) It could be going past the valves.. Just a thought.

[Mark/Foggy]

IMO you'd be better off forgetting the ring compressors. They're great if you've got the big ends undone and just want to feed the pistons, loose, into the barrels with the rods attached. If you get all the pistons at the same height, drop the barrel on and fiddle the rings in with thumb nails and lengths of cable tie ends you should get them all engaged and the barrels own weight will do most of the work. Probably find that there's not enough room under the bottom of the barrels for a compressor any way, but strips of tin can could come into play.

Last set that I did was on a cross-plane crank Yam - now that's a bastard due to the crank timing and all the pistons want to tip in opposite directions. Genuine Bastard job.

[colin600k1]

you might need new head bolts if they are stretch bolts sometimes they can only be used once. like also said before get bores checked and a top end gasket set ( should have all youre exhaust inlet and rocker cover gasket etc )

[dansp1]

time for a kit head gasket :-)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HONDA-HRC-CBR1000RR-RR8-RR9-RR10-08-09-10-KIT-RACE-0-55-HEAD-GASKET-TRACK-ONLY-/331223918227?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item4d1e7be693

[alpine*]

Depending on mileage / bore wear, you may need 'ridge dodger' rings.

Just remember that if there is a ridge on the top of the bore then standard rings can get broken if you don't hone it off, normally you would fit ridge dodgers, they have a recess cut out the top of the ring to miss the wear ridge. It will run but the first time you give it wellie the rings will break.

Not your bike, quote taken from here... http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,3762.0/wap2.html?PHPSESSID=bla4k13t01mubfe75u93unj407

[gsxr renegade]

Depending on mileage / bore wear, you may need 'ridge dodger' rings.

Just remember that if there is a ridge on the top of the bore then standard rings can get broken if you don't hone it off, normally you would fit ridge dodgers, they have a recess cut out the top of the ring to miss the wear ridge. It will run but the first time you give it wellie the rings will break.

Not your bike, quote taken from here... http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,3762.0/wap2.html?PHPSESSID=bla4k13t01mubfe75u93unj407

I'd hope there'd be hardly any wear at all, the bike has done less than 8000 miles. Plus, i'll be honing the cylinders before popping the new rings on.

[Evilchicken0]

I would get the head and top of the barrels skimmed, its not essential but it will make sure they're flat and spotless.

Find out if the barrels are nikasil coated (it reduces friction) if so honing the barrels can be very expensive. If they're not then get the barrels honed if they have any shiny areas or scoring.

You need a new head and base gasket

Consider having the head flowed and the volume ballaced because now would be the time.

Wipe some engine oil into the barrels before fitting them.

When you put the pistons back into the barrels put a rod either side of the two pistons to lock them level then squeeze the rings to get them started. Take care that the oil rings are installed properly beforehand.

Gently tap the barrels down evenly left right forward and back.

Turn the crank and lock the other two pistons flat then feed the barrels onto the bottom pistons and you should be there

Once you put the head on and torque it down you'll be familiar with setting the valves up.

You can put white paint on the can wheels and chain at TDC before you start. Put the biggest zip tie you can through the can chain to stop it dropping into the engine.

[gsxr renegade]

Cheers for the advice guys. I've had a bit of a read through the service manual and it doesn't seem too difficult, just incredibly methodical. The biggest pain seems to be all of the ancillary stuff i need to strip off the engine to get the crankcases apart. Going to need a lot of containers!!

I'll have to install the pistons individually through the top of the cylinder. I can't remove or install them from the bottom up as the rings will get caught in a gap between the cylinder lining and the upper crankcase and cause the pistons to become stuck.

[Adam]

Take pictures. Get some of those resealing food bags and sticky labels. Clean bits before you bag them up.

Not much else to add.

[dansp1]

Depending on mileage / bore wear, you may need 'ridge dodger' rings.

Just remember that if there is a ridge on the top of the bore then standard rings can get broken if you don't hone it off, normally you would fit ridge dodgers, they have a recess cut out the top of the ring to miss the wear ridge. It will run but the first time you give it wellie the rings will break.

Not your bike, quote taken from here... http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,3762.0/wap2.html?PHPSESSID=bla4k13t01mubfe75u93unj407

Well intentioned i am sure but this is vintage engine advice...

[nzknut]

Bang a JE big bore kit in there

http://www.jepistons.com/Catalogs/Powersports/Street-Cycle/Honda/cbr_1000rr_08.aspx

[Kayla]

Bang a JE big bore kit in there

http://www.jepistons.com/Catalogs/Powersports/Street-Cycle/Honda/cbr_1000rr_08.aspx

Oh, I see where this is going... It's a 'while you're that far into it' thread now isn't it?

sccccchhhhhhhhhhhwwwwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaPOW! WAPOW! WAPOW!

[chancho196]

A lot of good advice on here to be fair, and it is a lot of work. To be blunt, this sort of job is always better with years of experience - you tend to pick up what you can get away with, what should be done at this point, and why etc. But that being said, at least you have the benefit of the forum's gurus.

My advice/rubbish? Take pics, make sure it's as clean as you can make it, definitely hone it - even wet & dry/WD40 by hand is better than nothing, and be gentle with the rings but, before even going down that route, have you considered a different brand/grade of oil? What are you using at the moment?

[gsxr renegade]

A lot of good advice on here to be fair, and it is a lot of work. To be blunt, this sort of job is always better with years of experience - you tend to pick up what you can get away with, what should be done at this point, and why etc. But that being said, at least you have the benefit of the forum's gurus.

My advice/rubbish? Take pics, make sure it's as clean as you can make it, definitely hone it - even wet & dry/WD40 by hand is better than nothing, and be gentle with the rings but, before even going down that route, have you considered a different brand/grade of oil? What are you using at the moment?

At the moment it's Castrol power 1 10W-40. It came with Castrol power 1 10W-30. Both fully synth and noticed no change in consumption levels.

Edited to add: a honing tool is only a tenner or so, so I'll be getting one and giving it a whirl round the bores.