Cibbersicks Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 Does anyone know where I can get these AN3 fittings in Stainless Steel? http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/170686159198?roken=VFZ6sX I've looked for ages and can't find anything anywhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilchicken0 Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 Earls http://www.earls.co.uk/earls/hoseends/swivelseal.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cibbersicks Posted February 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Hmm Can't find any in Stainless on there though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sennidott Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I'm also looking for those fittings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanerdog1x1 Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 email alex at torques and ask him about a stainless one. he has a fair bit that he hasnt listed on ebay yet, and may get them made for you if he hasnt got them already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cibbersicks Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Cheers Matt message sent. As a side note, what are everyones feelings with aluminium fittings of any kind in a motorcycle braking system? I have always aired on the side of caution and gone for stainless but is there really anything to worry about as long as they are regularly maintained? I believe it to be something to do with corrosion from the inside out, and not knowing anything about it until the fitting fails, with rather dramatic results... But is there any evidence of this happening? I understand that if the brake fluid has not been changed regularly it will have absorbed some degree of water (Hygroscopic) which could in turn be the electrolyte needed for corrosion to start inside? If this is the case then if its a non-road going bike (no salt water) and the brakes are regularly and meticulously maintained is there a need for concern? These fittings are anodised which surely would protect against the corrosion? I suppose the anodising doesn't help at the seats where the surface may be damaged slightly from overtightening? I've asked the torques fella anyway, I'm interested to hear his thoughts. I know companies such as HEL won't advise aluminium fittings but there could be a little marketing shpeil in there. I'd be interested to hear of any hard evidence of them failing on regularly maintained brakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark/Foggy Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 More you 'maintain' them the more they'll fail. Getting the correct torque to seal the conical flares against their female seats pushes the material right up to it's limits. The temptation is to 'race check' them and end up stressing them too much. They develop micro cracks that then corrode like buggerey. These are tiny fasteners and the weight gains don't add up to the potential losses in a catastrophe. One day some-one will start making Ti components and we'll all jump ship. Only benefit that I can see at brake hose sizes is that they appeal to the 1980's Gixxer boys (or P1 in the very old days, I admit). Can't see any issues in larger sizes for Oil lines etc. would love Ti though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cibbersicks Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Have you actually seen them fail then Mark or is this simply by analysis of their construction? Not questioning your theory as it's spot on, very much along the lines of what I said about the seats. Interestingly, Spiegler say it's fine to use their aluminium fittings in braking systems (I can't comment on the quality of their lines, I haven't seen them) DO SPIEGLER ALUMINUM FITTINGS CORRODE? Mar 25, 2011 5:59:41 PM | FAQ | 0 Comments Rumor has it that aluminum brake line ends corrode in contact with stainless steel. Well, if this is a problem do you believe the solution is to mount stainless steel fittings to all aluminum calipers and master cylinders…? Spiegler uses the most modern technology, which includes anodized aluminum fittings that will not corrode. And we have DOT and TUV certification to prove it. With Spiegler's patented designs, we guarantee the entire brake line for life*. *Guaranteed for the life of original owner and the original motorcycle. http://www.spieglerusa.com/blog/cat/faq/post/Spiegler-aluminum-fittings-not-corrode/ Here's another interesting link to a short thread over on RGV250.co.uk The OP claims to have got confirmation from VOSA regarding the legalities for Aluminium brake fittings for road use, with a quite scary post afterwards from someone else. http://www.rgv250.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/47747-aluminium-brake-hose-fittings/ However, of course that second post is questionable evidence, what level of maintenance was carried out? How old were the fittings? When was the fluid last changed? Lives in Australia, potentially by the coast, so accelerated corrosion is to be expected. I'm struggling to find anything online about anything actually failing on people in recent times, anybody with any stories/evidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdunc Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 My under standing is that Aluminium fittings are an MOT failure. VOSA released a bulletin a few years back, concerned about potential anodic corrosion around banjo fitings, and where the braided line contacts the fitting. It's impossible to assemble these lines without the braid removing the anodizing. 7000 series alloys stainless braid and salty water is going to be a pretty active combination. I'll have a look in the Goodridge catalogue in a bit. Mark's comments about spanner checking are relevant, though I tend to leave well alone when checking over a car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cibbersicks Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Well if that post is anything to be believed then motorcycle guideline will be amended on the next publication to allow them... Whenever that may be. Reply from Torques - didn't speak to Alex just used the ebay messenger and spoke with Darren, just got a simple "No these aren't available in stainless, and due to the high pressures involved we do not recommend these for use in brake systems" Now mention of having any made nor trying to source some then. Thanksabunch lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sennidott Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 The reason I was after a pair of those 45' fittings was to try and do away with the short section of brake hose between the caliper and dry brake. I have now found these... http://spieglerusa.com/dry-brake-socket-quick-disconnect-1.htm Better start saving... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cibbersicks Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Yeah they also make ones that swivel too and lose the banjo fitting. There must be someone who makes these fittings in stainless surely?? Or is it do with the fact that the 45deg section is cast/forged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cibbersicks Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I've had a mooch through the Goodridge catalogue but had no luck. I'll give the Earls product list a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdunc Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Tom, would this work?http://www.ebay.co.uk/ctg/Goodridge-MCHD-005-45-Degree-Banjo-Brake-Line-Fitting-/171175084I won't tell anyone what it's designed for if you do decide to use one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cibbersicks Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Ha! They might just do the trick. Cheers Dunc, go on then what are they designed for? EDIT: Oh for fucks sake don't tell me it's for a Hardley Dangerous? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdunc Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 From the Goodridge Hardley Ableson special range. Hopefully that will shame you into spending the money on the Spiegler part.I've been through the latest Goodridge, Earls, and Think Automotive catalogues, and that is the best I can find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cibbersicks Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Cheers mate nice one. So wtf is the deal, why aren't these made in stainless? I can't bring myself to spend Staubli money OR fit anything that will require me to grow a handlebar moustache and wear bottomless chaps (yeah yeah already do at weekends blahblahblah) To be fair, this is only something in the pipeline (natch) as it all depends on how that dry break connector on my rear line performs. It's great so far I will admit, no leaks or air ingress. And that's even with my monkey hands disconnecting and reconnecting it just because I can to show off to myself (in my leather chaps). I'm only going to consider fitting them to the front lines IF the rear continues to perform well and IF I can solid mount them to the calipers. I don't want them swinging around in the wind potentially causing any damage y'see. All this said, has anyone any further evidence about aluminium brake fittings used in race conditions? I see YART has no problems using them for 24hr races - but then, just because a SBK team uses them doesn't mean it's right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cibbersicks Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Nice try Mr Mille my man, however the fittings I seek are not those, I'm after the ones with a female an3 thread on both ends rather than direct to hose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdunc Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 We used to run alloy brake line fittings, banjos, the lot, on our F3 cars, with fancy lightweight dash 3 hose, and hard lines.Never had any failures with them in 2 seasons, regularly seeing 120+ bar line pressures, which I recon is twice what you would see on a bike.We stopped using them as we couldn't justify the cost when we updated to new cars.I would be concerned with fatigue in the application you're talking about. Although the Staublis don't weigh much the way they are mounted along with the cyclical load from the brake lines straightening an relaxing every time you hit the brakes, would be cause for doubt imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark/Foggy Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Yep, seen 'em fail in old age. When you pull the calipers off the bike and get a side load through the hose, the nut falls in half exposing a neatly corroded crack surface, lovely. I think you want one of these, Fookin windows 8, lost ctrl C copy and ctrl V paste commands Grrrrrrrrrrr try Venhill E321-3SS which is a stainless swivel that you can screw a Goodridge? angled Banjo into, which would solid mount to the caliper, then a Reeeealy short line to the staubli and a line up to the yoke. Or more easy, bang a 10mm hole through an oblong of alloy for the banjo bolt, then drill and tap a hole through from one end to screw the male of the Staubli into. We never had to do any chamber turning inside the 10mm hole, a la a standard banjo, the waist on the banjo bolt seemed to be enough for us not to experience any problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cibbersicks Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Cheers Mark, So P1 used custom made solid fittings made of aluminium? Presumably hard anodised? No corrosion problems reported? What is the thread form and pitch of AN-3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdunc Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 3/8 unf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cibbersicks Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Cheers, is the angle at the seat 45deg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2moto Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I've always used these with great success. No failures so far. http://www.venhill.co.uk/Hoses_-_Components_&_Lines/POWERHOSE_PLUS/POWERHOSE_PLUS_BANJOS/STAINLESS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark/Foggy Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 No real probs with corrosion, were anodised red/blue as per usual side colour code, slight fading of the anodising due to regular immersion in brake fluid. Probably 6082 T6/8 with a few of mill wall everywhere, tough as. Obviously installed/orientated so that there could be little/no direct impact in an off. Well until the 'enemy' found a new and exotic way of crashing the fooker. Survived Hayden no probs, same can't be said of front master cylinder bleed nipples, did our whole stock in one wet race at Albacete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark/Foggy Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Oh forgot, 45 deg?, If they're uk supplied AN-3 then just stick a protactor next to them and you'll have your answer. However, there does seem to be some ISO metric spec out there. Ran into the prob with the Italians, Hel lines wouldn't seal to the Staubli's cones even though the thread would engage. Strange, but a revisit back to Hel and prob solved. My lack of Italian lead to me never getting a concrete answer as to what the conflict was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdunc Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 A true AN or JIC fitting has a 74o inclusive seat. Some are 90o though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blow_away Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Tom, re. the aluminium brake fittings, my advice is not to bother with them. I had failures using these on my old slabby back in the early '90's. They look fine from the outside, but when you put a spanner on them they turn to powder. I doubt that they are made any differently these days, and as others have said the weight loss is negligible. Not worth the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cibbersicks Posted February 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Right, so Alex at Torques has been in touch and we can now get these made. Sorted! Sennidott you have a PM sir Oh and Alan, you have a message on FB about something totally unrelated, have a ganders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cibbersicks Posted February 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Even better, he's just replied asking if we would be interested in a dry break banjo fitting like the Staubli one Sennidott posted. I'll keep you posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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