Timbo S2 Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 I've used Mikalor clamps in the past.They look better than normal jubilee clips.I get mine from this lot.http://www.hyphose.co.uk/superclamps-78-c.asp They look decent (and cheap). May replace the corroding items on the srad with some of these... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul8899 Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 Oh , it's a water pump ! Looks like a turbo at first glance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanerdog1x1 Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 the only problem with mikalor clamps on a water system is that they are so big(wide). they work fantastically on boost pipes, but are overkill for cooling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul8899 Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 I suppose all Marc would need to have the illusion of a turbo is for it to go pssssssshhhhhh when it's running Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernster Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 I found this a small but interesting read concerning advanced coolant tip's that you might be able to pick small pointers from regarding the issues you've been experiencing. http://www.stewartcomponents.com/tech_tips/Tech_Tips_5.htm http://www.stewartcomponents.com/tech_tips/Tech_Tips_6.htm http://www.stewartcomponents.com/tech_tips/Tech_Tips_7.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilchicken0 Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 the only problem with mikalor clamps on a water system is that they are so big(wide). they work fantastically on boost pipes, but are overkill for cooling. +1 That's why the Oetiker clamps are the shizzle..... Yes, they're to big and the bolt stops thenm being used in tight places ... (look away now Mark) I had the same problem on the SB6, I didn't like the jublee clips but the Mikalors were just to big ... Go for Millemille's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted November 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 I was thinking about this earlier; if you've got at least half decent hose clips on there, and everything is properly done up, then don't you think that the problem isn't the hose clips but something else causing too high a pressure. What i'm meaning to say, is that having been here before with trying to stop hoses popping off, is that you may have hoses that never come off the hoses, and then the weak point shifts somewhere else, hoses themselves, head gasket, thermostat housing... Yes Loz, that's a really good point and I do believe that I have created a potentially huge problem with how I've had to set this 'testing' routing up. The pump is capable of 80l/min at max chat, and it's outlet spigot is 28mm. I've had to reduce that down to a 15mm id pipe which is the most restrictive part of the system. That does sound a lot, but in fairness, the standard bike has parts of its system that aren't very far off 15mm id's. I also have other 'weak' points in the system, such as my radiator had a hole when I go it, which had been previously repaired. It's an ex-Virgin radiator and they'd been running the rad pushed so har back the core was touching the headers in one place which had rubbed through and they'd repaired it. I did my best to correct that repair as it was old, but fear that may leak at some point if pressure is too high. It was good for a number of years previously with the standard mechanical pump though. Of course this will all be sorted when eventually I can afford to have Matt do the job properly with a completely new radiator. There's no thermostat on the bike any more as a side note. The ewp and it's controller do that job on their own. While the bike is warming up, the pump pulses ten seconds on, twenty seconds off until nearing operatiing temp then varies flow rate dpending on the target temp. the only problem with mikalor clamps on a water system is that they are so big(wide). they work fantastically on boost pipes, but are overkill for cooling. Yep, I've found that in the past often too. I found this a small but interesting read concerning advanced coolant tip's that you might be able to pick small pointers from regarding the issues you've been experiencing. http://www.stewartcomponents.com/tech_tips/Tech_Tips_5.htm http://www.stewartcomponents.com/tech_tips/Tech_Tips_6.htm http://www.stewartcomponents.com/tech_tips/Tech_Tips_7.htm Some good reading there, thanks for passing that on Bernster. Ultimately for coolant I plan on using this: http://www.evanscoolants.co.uk/power-cool-180-for-performance-cars.html It's got a number of benefits, one being a lower pressure in the system when hot. I haven't got any experience of it though, if anyone else has, I'd love to hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted November 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Oh , it's a water pump ! Looks like a turbo at first glance You had to didn't you! I suppose all Marc would need to have the illusion of a turbo is for it to go pssssssshhhhhh when it's running It'll probably make plenty of pssssshhhh noises all by itself, when the next leak happens... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gobert Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Off topic I know but does anyone know what sort of money you are looking at for a custom rad? assuming I'm just looking for a better version of the OE item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kens Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 The flow of heat carried by the coolant is given by Q=mCdT M is mass flow rate in kg per second C is the specific heat capacity of the coolant in kJ per kg dT is the temperature difference across the heat exchanger in degrees C Q is the heat flow rate in kJ per second or kilowatts The AMOUNT of heat carried is Q times the time it flows in seconds. The amount of heat carried across the heat exchanger is given by Q=UAdT where Q and dT are as above and A is the area of heat exchange in m squared, and U is the heat transfer coefficient in watts per square meter per degree. If your engine is making heat it needs to transfer it to the medium (air, or in your case, liquid) and then move it to the radiator and pipes, where it transfers to the air. If all goes well, the q out of the engine equals the q into the coolant and that equals the q to the air. Different designs can change the U value or the area (so a kit radiator is bigger and may also have finer fins, or be made of a different material) but they all rely on being able to dissipate heat faster than the engine can make it. Which is why we have fans and thermostats, the radiator is way more powerful than the engine (so long as the air flows over it) Kind of the same way brakes are more powerful than engines. Slowing down the flow rate means the coolant heats up and therefore reduces the delta t. So ultimately you move less energy. Increasing the flow rate maintains high delta t and increases Q overall. Buying fancy coolant may change the C by a bit, but it's nothing compared with the benefits of running a high mass flow rate. (water, for example, carries more heat than a glycol water mix, but the mix has other useful properties) So your assumption that a slower flow rate somehow increases heat transfer is sadly exactly the opposite of the truth, but yes it might reduce the drag on the mechanical water pump if you had te ability to have say variable vanes on it. The best way to minimize drag/cost is to keep the bends and restrictions and changes in diameter to a minimum. And to use blue anodizing wherever possible because it's faster, innit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted November 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Yeah, I have plenty of bends, restirctions and changes in diameter but I do have a pump capable of chucking coolant through it all pretty quickly if needs be, and a huge radiator. No blue anodising though, sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdunc Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Re that Evans waterless coolant. Not used it personally, but know a few that have. No downsides other than cost, Only really seems to be a benefit if you have other underlying problems. It appears to be a rebranding of the 4life coolant that Honda use in their road cars, so that might be a cheaper source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted November 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Nice info, cheers Duncan I definitely have the underlying problems bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2moto Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Clamps galore! http://www.hcl-clamping.co.uk/productlist.php?=&showall=0&perpage=24 I just use good quality worm drive clamps, like these: http://www.normagroup.com/kunden/norma/ttw.nsf/id/EN_NORMACLAMP_Hose_Clamps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted November 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Oooo, that first link is a good find 2moto. Some very useful tools on there too. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gobert Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Re that Evans waterless coolant. Not used it personally, but know a few that have. No downsides other than cost, Only really seems to be a benefit if you have other underlying problems. It appears to be a rebranding of the 4life coolant that Honda use in their road cars, so that might be a cheaper source. I looked into this but all it does is stop your engine boiling over rather than reducing the actual temperature that it runs at which is my issue. What's happend to the quote function........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted November 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Yep, it has all gone a bit 'tricky'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark/Foggy Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 I'm a big fan of HCL clamping solutions, alwys comes up with the goods. When I've been doing this sort of job on the P1 bikes I generally go for different clamps in different positions. Yamaha do a twin banded version of these that I use on smaller hoses around the coller etc, they come with an alloy pull off block that hold's them open prior to aplication. You fit them and pull off the alloy tag when required. http://www.hcl-clamping.co.uk/Rotor-Spring-Band-Light-Hose-Clamp-Constant-Tension-P10 But tese are the muts http://www.hcl-clamping.co.uk/Ezyclikreg-M-Low-Profile-Automotive-Hose-Clip-P3 You may find larger versions of these that could solve every clamp, HCL did do non stainless Ezyclick that went up to 45mm But, I'd be quite happy using these - http://www.hcl-clamping.co.uk/Ezyclikreg-P-Low-Profile-Plastic-Hose-Clamp-P2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted November 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 Some interesting info there Mark/Foggy, thanks for the input I'm not sure how much clamping force the plastic clips in the last link would have though. You think they'd be enough for my needs? I do like clamps where I can get a feel for the tension if that makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark/Foggy Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 Well for me that's the problem with silicon, the temptation is to just give it another tweek, then another to check and then later on when you're working on the bike, they get tweeked again. It's this that wreck's the hoses. Fitting a constant tension clamp or compensating clamp is the answer. Now on tension, you're only dealing with upto 1.8 bar, anything over that and the headgasket on an R1 wil fail. Now if you consider how little pressure there is holding the O Rings against the block where the steel pipes are, you'll realise that you only need a clip aprrox 1mm bigger than nominal for the pipes over 25mm and about 0.5 for the smaller hoses. What are you actually trying to achieve, we were always under the impression that if you wanted to cool an R1 better, spliiting the oil circuit off to it's own rad and dispensing with the oil/water cooler was the way to go. Certainly essential if you've upped the compression ratio. What we observed (a lot) was that over heating was most likely as the bike came to a standstill and the heat soak from the oil massively pushed up the water temp. Headgaskets failing all around us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted November 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 That makes sense Mark/Foggy. My main problem is indeed overheating or rather temp rising too quickly at slow speed/standstill. My engine is heavily tuned, high compression and the radiator I'm using doesn't have leave space for a fan or fans. I'm also very interested in getting the ewp to work to see what power it frees up not having to drive a mechanical water pump. I would be interested in at some stage running a seperate oil cooler for definite. So far I must admit I've never had anything push past the rad cap (1.1bar) but I've been unable to measure coolant temperature other than through the temp sender in the rad. I've changed that now and have a sensor in the cylinder inlet spigot plus the one in the radiator which is very close to cylinder head output and I've also added one in the sump so I can get a measure of oil temp. Mike (millemille) came to visit me yesterday, great to see him again, and he bought with him some of the Oetiker clamps and I've very impressed by them, seems like they're exactly what I need although I would like to run the spring equipped constant tension versions just for a bit of peice of mine with varying temps on hose joints. I know Mike said that he'd try not to run them as the spring is rightfully, a possible failure butt he more I think about it, even if the spring snapped, being as they're as tightly colied as they look in pictures, I don't think they'd lose a significant amount of tension if they did, and they certainly couldn't escape. That make sense? I'll be ordering some as soon as the bike's in enough bits to accurately measure the quantity and sizings I need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomekzxr Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 Hi Mark. I don't remember if I told it in past on r1 forum but I am afraid You are not aware of what convection and forced convection is. Basically thats what kens states in his formulas. Theres no such a thing as time that water has to heat up or cool down. It's exactly the same science as air having time to cool the radiator-but in reality it's not how You should look at that. The faster fluid(air or gas) flows the more efficient the heat transfer. And it's not even linear ratio. I don't remeber formulas( ca. ten years back, I had thermokinetics on university) but it was like 1 at standing to milions at MACH1. You will speed up the coolant flow to a certain point where it does not give anyhing more becouse the actuall bottleneck of cooling system is heat exhange between radiator and air. Water provides way better convection heat trasfer than air- now try to replace it with mercury Try to check if You have any benefit of your new system before You commit to spend more money. I rather doubt that waterflow speed was bottleneck of your cooling system. By my guess is - what You are doing is like adding power to engine while using slicks on ice. Anyway I've been waiting for your result for quite some time now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomekzxr Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 That makes sense Mark/Foggy. My main problem is indeed overheating or rather temp rising too quickly at slow speed/standstill. My engine is heavily tuned, high compression and the radiator I'm using doesn't have leave space for a fan or fans. This is your problem- lack of air flow at low speed. You won't get away without fans. Your radiator wasn't meant to be used in traffic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted November 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 Yep, I agree, nothing I'm doing now is going to make a drastic difference to temperature at slow speed or especially standstill. Really I'm only testing this so I can make sure that using an EWP doesn't make my temperature problems worse, and it frees up some power by not having the mechanical pump. If all is well then I'll commit to having a different radiator made that will be both more efficient and a suitable size/shape to allow me to use better plumbing, and importantly, fans. I haven't touched the bike for a bit over two years now due to time and more so, financial reasons. I still don't have more of either but where there's a will there's a way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2moto Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 Every time I used an EWP it made things better, i.e. lower temperature, less power consumed. A programmable flow controller is also very useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted November 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 That's what I have 2moto. Here's hoping I see some benefits too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cibbersicks Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Now these look fancy if you were in the market for a full custom cooling system http://www.staubli.com/index.php?eID=tx_nawsecuredl&u=0&file=fileadmin/user_upload/staublicom/connectors/products/DMR/pdf/DMR_staubli_Z420e.pdf&t=1386098016&hash=ed86e6372fa39552eba9a5c1d43930ce2b325789 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted December 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2013 Oh Lordy... They're nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo S2 Posted December 3, 2013 Report Share Posted December 3, 2013 Yes they are. They also look like i'd need to re-mortgage the house... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted December 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2013 You would, and I hope you've got a large house! Not to mention the expense associated with having a setup that these woulod fit to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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