Talk To Me About Jubilee Clips. Fancy Ones...

[marcaztls]

If you would please.

What options do I have for fancy jubilee style clips?

Basically I have a load of silicone hoses I need to tighten, and I hate conventional jubilee clips. At best they just look crap, at worst they come in pretty useless forms.

I've seen a few 'cool' means of clmaping hoses, but I know some of you will have seen more.

I'm specifically after stuff that's light, as I've a good few hoses to clamp, and trick looking, purely because I'm a tart.

As narrow as possible while not cutting into hoses would be good too.

Moon on a stick, I know...

[marcaztls]

That's one thought for sure. Not seen those before Mike.

I need around seventeen of varying sizes though.

[marcaztls]

By the way, I had previously seen these:

http://www.titan-marine-hardware.com/titanium-hose-clamps.htm

But to be honest, they just look like conventional jubilee clips, and they've been out of stock of them for at least two years now, probably longer.

[Rick448]

Doesn't Guy Martin use some special sort of clips on his bikes?

[marcaztls]

Also, jubilee style clamps really tighten in one point don't they?

The ones you've posted Mike, they are more a consistent clamp right?

Anyone know much about wire clamps on silicone hoses? Like these:



I've got no experience of them. Would they cut into the hose after time or just not apply enough clamping force?

I'd better add these are cooling system hoses, and under a fair bit of pressure.

[marcaztls]

I wasn't trying to sell you mine.....much.....

They're used by WSB and MotoGP teams and are available in a wide range of sizes. I'll be buying them for the SpokeyV.

They do seem good, but I'm not sure if they're exactly what I'm looking for. Honestly, I'm a twat who half the time doesn't know what he wants until he sees it... Hard to explain.

Doesn't Guy Martin use some special sort of clips on his bikes?

I have no idea I'm afraid.

I've toyed with steel cable ties, but don't know much about them either. In the locations I have to use them, access is tricky, but not impossible, and I don't know how you'd release a steel cable tie without damaging the hose, or even if they'd apply enough pressure.

[marcaztls]

The Oetiker clamps are designed to give an even and distributed clamping force all the way around and to work with silicon hoses.

Sounding good. These are moving rapidly up my list due to them sounding ideal.

Do they do a gold with spangles version though?

[marcaztls]

The clamps you pictured for sale don't have the springs to allow for expansion/contraction Mike. Did you remove/replace them with spacers?

Just curious as I do like that feature on them.

[marcaztls]

Sorry, just noticed they come in two versions, one being the self-tensioning ones...

Told you I was a twat.

[Superdunc]

Steel cable ties will cut into the hose. I've used normal cable ties on as race car in a on the grid type shit fight before. Lasted the race, bur wouldn't recommend them....


Get a load of Wiggins connectors and throw the silicone hoses away.

[marcaztls]

Haha! I knew someone would mention Wiggins's's's's...

Trust me, if I could afford a system made of them, I would, but the mess of plumbing I have, I think a factory would struggle to sort it hard-plumbing...

Eventually I'd like kanerdog to make me a complete radiator which will solve a myriad of problems, but for now hoses will have to do.

I need something which clamps tight, because a lot of the plumbing connections don't have flares on them and my pump at full flow is pretty pokey, testing any connection. Throw heat into the mix and you can see why I've only got as far as bench testing the setup before the next hose decides to let go.

For anyone interested, an 80l/min pump will empty a cooling system on a bike quicker than you can hit the kill switch to begin cleaning the mess up...

[Superdunc]

Why have you got such a powerful pump Mark? Is that the only one available.

[marcaztls]

Long story Duncan, but this is what I have to work with.

Don't laugh, it won't ultimately end up like this. It's more for testing (although it needs to be road tested) so I need it to hold together and at least give me an idea that an electric water pump will work before embraking on a costly route to doing the job properly.

Eventually I'll be (he doesn't know it yet...) taking a trip to kanerdog to make a better plumbing job of this using his fab skills then that will undoubtedly all get ditched when he tells me he can make a radiator that will work a million percent better than I have now. Money will dictate how soon I can do this though, as always...





Please no-one mention hamsters. I've lost three in there already.

[marcaztls]

I should add that the pump is linked to it's own controller/temp sensor and will vary flow rates depending on what it sees fit to maintain a pre-programmed temp, but for testing at the moment, I've been running it flat out to make sure the system can cope with that.

I don't know much about 'building your own cooling system' but I am learning fast, so bear with me.

[Bernster]

These look tasty, I bet they're not cheap mind but based in The UK.

Even come in different colours for that endurance look.

From here => http://www.prolockhoseclamps.com/

Depending on the ID and how much you're prepared to spend with seat-posts coming in a number of diameters varying in increments as little as 0.25mm in diameter from 25.5mm to 27.95mm I'm sure these carbon ones will evenly distribute the clamping force without cutting into oil / water hose lines.

If you needed to pack them with rubber they'd still look pretty factory I suppose.

[Superdunc]

That's a monster.

The pressure in the system will be governed by the rad cap not the pump, so you won't see any more load on the claps than the normal system.

I personally would go for a quality hose clamp like the Mikalor or Oetiker clamps if you're feeling flush. Never used the wire type, but the perforated clamps like the Ti

ones you linked to shred hoses in no time.

[marcaztls]

These look tasty, I bet they're not cheap mind.

From here => http://www.prolockhoseclamps.com/

Depending on the ID and how much you're prepared to spend with seat-posts coming in a number of diameters varying in increments as little as 0.25mm in diameter from 25.5mm to 27.95mm I'm sure these carbon ones will evenly distribute the clamping force without cutting into oil / water hose lines.

If you needed to pack them with rubber they'd still look pretty factory I suppose.

6.5Nm around some silicon hose would be fine I'm sure, certainly as much as a 8mm spanner around a genuine Jubilee clip?

Those first ones are a bit too wedding ring for my eye, but good find none the less

The second, to be honest I think the sides would cut into the hoses quite quickly. Carbon is an excellent knife just when you don't want it to be. I need sizes outside of those ranges though.

Thanks very much for the help though, appreciated massively.

That's a monster.

The pressure in the system will be governed by the rad cap not the pump, so you won't see any more load on the claps than the normal system.

I personally would go for a quality hose clamp like the Mikalor or Oetiker clamps if you're feeling flush. Never used the wire type, but the perforated clamps like the Ti

ones you linked to shred hoses in no time.

It's a mess, but I expect you were being polite!

Yep, agree about the cap, but so far it's been blowing hoses off before the cap has opened. This I've put down to many of the joints not having flares on, particularly the pump outlet which I had to shorten thus removing the flare, and it's made of nylon so is quite hard for a silicone hose to grip onto. There's a new outlet spigot about to be made out off alloy though, with a flare so hopefully that will eliminate that one joint.

They have only l;et go once warm though, this may be where Mike's suggestion of the self-tensioning Oetiker clamps will pay dividends.

[Superdunc]

Sounds like you need to sort the pump outlet first, I've run alloy pipes with no bead, with out any problem, though I prefer it if they have a bead.

If you're going to redo the plumbing, could you rejig it so the coolant coming from the radiator goes to the cylinder head first. Cooler combustion chamber will allow more compression or ignition advance.

[kanerdog1x1]

Ask the wurth rep about 'zebra' clips. They're just nicer quality, stainless, narrow, silicon safe hose clips. Only drawback is they come in boxes of ten, but looking at that mess of hoses shouldn't be a problem. I like 'em.

[marcaztls]

Well so far I've not actually had any of the alloy pipes specifically that hoses have popped off of but there was one alloy part with no flare/bead but in fairness I don't think I'd tightened that enough.

I do worry that at present, the entire cooling 'loop' has to pass through some quite narrow piping, that could be creating a pressure bottleneck.

Yes, I completely agree that having the cool side enter the head rather than cylinders as it is now and as standard would be better, especially as I'm running very high compression now.

It's hard for you to get a complete overview of the system with seeing the radiator and I'm on my phone at home now. All pics are at work.

[marcaztls]

Ask the wurth rep about 'zebra' clips. They're just nicer quality, stainless, narrow, silicon safe hose clips. Only drawback is they come in boxes of ten, but looking at that mess of hoses shouldn't be a problem. I like 'em.

Coolio, I'll check them out too Matt, ta.

Can you see how much simpler you could make it at a glance?

This engine runs hot, very.

[zedsdead]

Ok I know nothing about the topic so am just peeing into the wind here. But, could you not get some bespoke silicone hoses made up. A factory I worked for years ago used to get this done. A mandrel was made up and the hose was wrapped around this before being dipped in a coating. It would remove a lot of the joints and issues of different diameters.

Don't know, just thinking out loud.

[kanerdog1x1]

it'd be nice to get your bike at work and do some plumbing for it. in an ideal world you wouldnt use any special/bespoke silicon hoses, the more complicated they are the more they cost, and ultimately more unreliable they are.

its nice to have all the pipework in aluminium, with only short silicon(or wiggins ) joiners so you would be very unlucky to have a failure, and if you did it would be a cheap off-the-shelf part.

[shooter560]

Could you not have the block inlet/outlet re made with the exit pointing the other way then you won't have to run pipes all round the exhaust system and so gathering heat rather than losing it, plus it'd clean up the pipes loads

[ssray]

Prices range from £8.99 - £25.99.

http://www.audituningmag.com/prolock-hose-clamps/

[Kayla]

Coolio, I'll check them out too Matt, ta.

Can you see how much simpler you could make it at a glance?

This engine runs hot, very.

Might it be an idea to try and slow the rate of flow slightly to give the coolant more time to absorb some heat from the engine? Or does it not work like that?

[marcaztls]

Ok I know nothing about the topic so am just peeing into the wind here. But, could you not get some bespoke silicone hoses made up. A factory I worked for years ago used to get this done. A mandrel was made up and the hose was wrapped around this before being dipped in a coating. It would remove a lot of the joints and issues of different diameters.

Don't know, just thinking out loud.

I did look into this just over two years ago, and while it was possible, it was looking at being very expensive at both places I enquired at. More so given that ultimately this setup won't be staying once I can afford a new radiator custom making.

Good thinking though

it'd be nice to get your bike at work and do some plumbing for it. in an ideal world you wouldnt use any special/bespoke silicon hoses, the more complicated they are the more they cost, and ultimately more unreliable they are.

its nice to have all the pipework in aluminium, with only short silicon(or wiggins ) joiners so you would be very unlucky to have a failure, and if you did it would be a cheap off-the-shelf part.

That's exactly my thinking once I know that this pump works and gives me the gains/benefits I hope it will. This rig will hopefully just give me an indication of that, then I can start working out how to fund a bespoke radiator/plumbing setup.

That will ultimately solve many problems and I'll gain in many ways, but for now I just can't afford that, so I'm having to work with what I can, especially while it's all in the testing phase.

Could you not have the block inlet/outlet re made with the exit pointing the other way then you won't have to run pipes all round the exhaust system and so gathering heat rather than losing it, plus it'd clean up the pipes loads

Trust me, I spent literally months trying to work out the neatest way of packing everything in there and this is the best I could come up with, which I know is far from ideal.

When everything, exhaust, radiator etc. is on, nothing is touching and I don't believe that the heat from the headers will greatly affect that pipe running over them considering the whole ehaders are so close to the radiator anyway, which if anything is a much better heatsink.

Like I said, it's not ideal granted, but I don't think it's a significant game changer at this stage but I do understand why you think it would be possible to re-route everything looking at those pictures. When you see it in the metal, this is just the best way I could come up with.

Might it be an idea to try and slow the rate of flow slightly to give the coolant more time to absorb some heat from the engine? Or does it not work like that?

Yes, that's what I hope the standalone controller will do linked to the pump. It should speed up/slow down flow as it deems necessary.

I have added an extra coolant temp sensor into the cylinder spigot so I can monitor temps there as I believe that's more critical then the other sensor, which is in the radiator, next to the inlet for coolant leaving the head.

It's a tricky thing to get right, flow rate, because the quicker you have coolant flowing, the less chance it has to absorb heat in the engine, and the less chance for it to cool through a radiator. Slow it down and it'll get too hot inside the engine, and too cool in the radiator. This is where a mechanical pump linked to engine rpm falls down, and I'm hoping I can get the necessary from an EWP (electric water pump) which is constantly variable regardless of engine rpm. It's also got the added benefit of being able to run after the engine has stopped, reducing the risk of localised hot spots.

Existing mechanical pumps have to be 'geared' for optimum flow at their lowest rpm, idle. The consequence of this is that at maximum rpm, the pump is flowing far greater than needed, sapping power from the engine which is fighting to pump coolant that fast, and the coolant doesn't get to do its job as best it can.

If anyone's ever ridden a bike with a thermostat stuck shut, it's incredible how much 'drag' that can put on an engine. I rode a CBR600 that struggled to pull past 80mph like that once and it really opened my eyes just how much power is lost to a mechanically pumped system.

[marcaztls]

Prices range from £8.99 - £25.99.

http://www.audituningmag.com/prolock-hose-clamps/

I struggle to see how that design of clamp is going to provide a constant clamping force around the whole circumference of the hose, given that there is no mechanism for the clamp to constrict inwards in anything other than the plane perpendicular to the centre line of the clamping bolt.

A shiny gee-gaw at best and an engine failure waiting to happen at worst....

I do agree, and mechanical disadvantages aside, they look too blingy and not 'racey' enough for me.

Thanks very much for looking though ssray

[Mike1100xx]

I've used Mikalor clamps in the past.They look better than normal jubilee clips.I get mine from this lot.

http://www.hyphose.co.uk/superclamps-78-c.asp

[lorenzo]

I was thinking about this earlier; if you've got at least half decent hose clips on there, and everything is properly done up, then don't you think that the problem isn't the hose clips but something else causing too high a pressure. What i'm meaning to say, is that having been here before with trying to stop hoses popping off, is that you may have hoses that never come off the hoses, and then the weak point shifts somewhere else, hoses themselves, head gasket, thermostat housing...