burntout Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Righto, some of you may have seen my thread on my R6 project which has been long in the making. It was stalled when I discovered the engine makes a loud knocking in all but first gear after having the output shaft replaced due to a welded on front sprocket. When I bought the bike I never ran it through the gears so dont know if this was happening before. I would suspect so given the rascal I bought it off. I have since had the entire gearbox replaced (in two stages but it is now an entirely new second hand box in there) and yet it persists. Previous suggestions which have subsequently been ruled out are - Detent spring - no problems here Excessive wear - box that went in was in better nick than the 26k mile one that came out Selector forks - as above, all replaced and nothing wrong in here I have read rumblings about the starter clutch and associated gubbins but again, why only the top 5 gears?! The noise sounds and feels like it coming from this area but it makes no sense. There are no odd noises when it is cranked over to start. This is now a riddle wrapped within a ball sack of a problem....any thoughts oh wise PB mag readers?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter_jamie Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Possibly something silly like a missing spacer or similar. Download a parts cat. And go through it component by component to convince yourself everything is as intended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BudgetBoy Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Ok to clear some things up.. On taking the gearbox apart i replaced like for like.. As i explained to Burnout he had 2 different gearboxes in the engine.This would not be good as you are trying to match two different types of wear..So i replaced the gearbox so that it is now the same one from the same model. I do not suspect there is any washers missing,although i assume the gearbox was fitted correctly from the last bloke.I am led to believe he did not split the shaft and remove any gears. I replaced the following:- Shifter forks Both shift fork guide bars Shift drum assy main axle assy Main Drive axle bearing Oil seal Another thing i have explained to Burnout is he has the bike on an Abba stand with NO chain on the bike.. The bikes engine is not under load and this "Might" make a difference.Although im not 100%,but i would fit the chain and run it down the road to eliminate this. Failing that i will gladly pop over and have a look while the engine is in the bike and go over it with my stethoscope. PLEASE NOTE:- I did not charge Burnout for the work,i said only pay me what you think IF it works.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burntout Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Don't get too defensive mate, I don't think this related in any way to your handy work, all help has been much appreciated. I'll pop the chain on tomorrow and give it a go, you never know that may help. I'll report back tomorrow on that. I guess then its down to checking a parts diagram or planning the next drop! I update tomorrow morning and see what happens. It didn't make the noise initially but it then developed so some resistance through the drive train could well help. Only needs to sound fine for the sale ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BudgetBoy Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 LOL.. i did not mean to come across like that mate... lol.. Just trying to give others the idea of what's been done already mate.. Every detail helps.. As i said in my PM,, im happy to pop over,, and/or will pull the engine apart again.Without hearing it bike problems like this can be hard to diagnose mate.. It could be other things.. if the chain thing dont work,, PM me or post on here and i will pop over and take a look.. Then you can either drop the engine over to me after this or go fishing with it lol.. Cant be fairer than that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorenzo Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Not the greatest of bits of info, but I've had bikes that were fine when there was a bit of road under them but made an absolute racket when they were on a stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex_H Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Not the greatest of bits of info, but I've had bikes that were fine when there was a bit of road under them but made an absolute racket when they were on a stand. Same here, my r1 goes clack clack clack on a stand. On the road, its fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Have the primary drive gear, clutch cush and drive gear been thoroughly checked for wear? What about shells on both crank and rods? While the motor's been apart I hope the oil pump rotor's been replaced or at least checked closely. What sort of rpm is the noise happening at? Engine temp make a difference and is the clutch noisy when lever is in or out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BudgetBoy Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Have the primary drive gear, clutch cush and drive gear been thoroughly checked for wear? Burnout will tell you himself that the ones that came out were worn,you could see where they had been slipping or signs of wear.So i replaced all of what i said mate. However as i said i did NOT touch the main shaft as this had been done by the previous mechanic. What about shells on both crank and rods?No, Although i suspect it has something to do with the pistons myself .I just replaced the gearbox as asked mate. While the motor's been apart I hope the oil pump rotor's been replaced or at least checked closely.No, oil pump is the same that came out.. There was no notchyness,it span freely,no wear on drive unit and it was within spec (0.15mm inner & outers) What sort of rpm is the noise happening at? Engine temp make a difference and is the clutch noisy when lever is in or out?Can't answer this,but i would check this if i was to view it..However from what Burnout has said i do not think its clutch related. Answers above Mark. Also Burnout stated there was no metals in the oil he drained from it. As i said i don't think it is gearbox related now as the parts that are in there are all from the same bike now.. There is no wear on the gears,fork shifters,pawls,Shifter forks,shift drum,shift fork guide bars etc. Id be looking at little ends,CCT,main/little bearing shells.. ears.It does not seem right to me that it is ok in 1st gear but not the other gears..Seems like when the engine is under load 2nd upwards it makes the noise..The fact the that everything in the gearbox was replaced apart from the main shaft tells me it is either CCT or piston area related (rings,bearings ect)..I must also add the main shaft was replaced last time due to the same issues. I have told Burnout to put the chain back on and take it up the road and see if it still does it.. If not i will go over with my scope and pinpoint where the noise is coming from,the diagnosis might be easier as well.Then drop the engine and i will fix the problem for him. Hope that helps Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Thanks for the answers. From the op symptoms I've been thinking it's engine related, not gearbox but unfortunately over the 'net, that's about as much help as anyone can be seeing what's been done to it already. That engine needs a full strip/inspect. Pop a chain on and try it, might as well as I doubt much more damage will happen (don't quote me on that if you throw a rod or drop a valve!) but I'm 99% sure there'll be no difference. Then get stripping. Good luck and please keep this updated. We can all learn from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burntout Posted February 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Answers above Mark. Also Burnout stated there was no metals in the oil he drained from it. As i said i don't think it is gearbox related now as the parts that are in there are all from the same bike now.. There is no wear on the gears,fork shifters,pawls,Shifter forks,shift drum,shift fork guide bars etc. Id be looking at little ends,CCT,main/little bearing shells.. ears.It does not seem right to me that it is ok in 1st gear but not the other gears..Seems like when the engine is under load 2nd upwards it makes the noise..The fact the that everything in the gearbox was replaced apart from the main shaft tells me it is either CCT or piston area related (rings,bearings ect)..I must also add the main shaft was replaced last time due to the same issues. I have told Burnout to put the chain back on and take it up the road and see if it still does it.. If not i will go over with my scope and pinpoint where the noise is coming from,the diagnosis might be easier as well.Then drop the engine and i will fix the problem for him. Hope that helps Mark Firstly....it's burnTout, not burnout....burnout was taken! Thanks for the answers. From the op symptoms I've been thinking it's engine related, not gearbox but unfortunately over the 'net, that's about as much help as anyone can be seeing what's been done to it already. That engine needs a full strip/inspect. Pop a chain on and try it, might as well as I doubt much more damage will happen (don't quote me on that if you throw a rod or drop a valve!) but I'm 99% sure there'll be no difference. Then get stripping. Good luck and please keep this updated. We can all learn from it. We have had some reasonable success this afternoon As suggested I popped the chain on and warmed her up, ran her through all the gears and applied a little load with the rear brake it and is significantly better but still not quite right. The violence of the tapping has reduced and once you've dialled your ear in to overcome the chain noise you can still make it out. It would be enough to raise an eyebrow or two of an observant buyer. With this in mind I deployed the old "long scredriver as a stethoscope" trick and worked my way round the engine to see if I can find the source. Starting from the top there are no unusual noises coming from - clyinder head pistons (area) output shaft side (sprocket side that is) Selector shaft cover starter motor sump however I get the clearest tapping coming from the clutch case which could suggest the clutch basket, crank shaft gear or..... ? I need to adjust the clutch at the moment because it doesnt engage when pulled so am unable to take it down the road to see if it is noticeable when riding or whether having drive transferred back through the box on a neutral throttle i.e. the road pushing the box, makes any difference as well. It is however a marked improvement so let's hope we're not talking big ends. Tomorrow evening I will attempt to sort the clutch get it engaging properly and see how she is down the road. As I've said before I really do not think it is related to the top end in any way, that all sounds sweet, so I think we are now narrowing down the potential source. I appreciate the way sound moves through the cases can give a false impression of the location but I'm certain it's relating to the right hand side around about the clutch basket area now. Budget boy, how did the clutch / basket etc look when you were in there? This could hopefully be a quicker fix than a full drop and split with any luck but I reserve judgement for the moment. PM me if you're free this week to hear it in the flesh.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burntout Posted February 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Oh yeah, meant to add I dont think it's the cam chain tensioner as I previsouly had an R6 (99) "back in the day" and had that replaced due to a tapping and that was a significantly different noise to the original one but perhaps this is now the remaining problem tap I'm getting. At least that's a quick fix if so as well..... As I say, I'll see what budgetboy thinks this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burntout Posted February 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Found this on youtube.... closest thing which described the noise....(albeit less severe now...) [media=] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanerdog1x1 Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 has anybody thought that that the welded on sprocket may be the cause? its possible, tho unlikely that when it was welded on, the welder was earthed somewhere else on the bike and this has caused something in the engine to arc out. possibly on the primary gears by the sound of the description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 That's a good call Matt, no I hadn't thought of that. My money's still on primary drive gear problems and/or worn shells though, but that's a good bit of thinking there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BudgetBoy Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 The whole shaft with the welded sprocket on was replaced.So the whole gearbox is new (2nd hand) I hazard a guess at it being N0 2 or 3 big/little ends or piston wear.. something around that area.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 Yep, but Matt was referring to the possibility that something else inside the engine was affected during the welding on the original shaft. If the entire 'box has been replaced with what's deemed a good one, it's something else or case problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BudgetBoy Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 Yep, but Matt was referring to the possibility that something else inside the engine was affected during the welding on the original shaft. If the entire 'box has been replaced with what's deemed a good one, it's something else or case problems. Ah got ya sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BudgetBoy Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Ok i said i would keep folk upto date on this.. So i went over to Tom's today (bout 20 mins ago) and the noise is coming from the main shaft.This was replaced by the last mechanic and i did not touch it when i had it here. The bike does the noise in 2/3/4/5/6th with the clutch in or out as well.No noise coming from clutch are at all. Put the good old stethescope all over the bike and the noise if deffo from the backside of the engine on the main shaft area. I do not think it is the bearings as it does not do it in 1st or Neutral even when put under load. So the plan of action is to whip the engine out and remove the main shaft and disassemble it. With any luck this should be the root of the problem and Tom can wring its neck on a trackday... Other than that the bike does sound and run very nice.. Its a testament to Tom how much effort he has put in to just cleaning this bike..Looks nice in the flesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Cool, look forward to what you find when it's stripped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burntout Posted February 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Ah shucks James, you'll make me blush! I'm glad the old stethoscope proved I wasn't - A) mental and making it up and was in the right location for my suspicions again. As you said mate I reckon close inspection of the output shaft towards the sprocket side will hopefully show an obvious error from the previous spanner man or something easy to fix. Got my eye on more gearboxes on eBay and requesting detailed photos of the dogs and dog slots etc to make sure I don't buy a shitter. Once I've bunged you some cash we're getting close to the cost of a new engine from the off!! Also new radiator hoses and gaskets on order... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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