ant802 Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 hello everyone!, i've just rebuild my race engine, zx636 06, new mains, big ends, new stock pistons, rings, valves, etc and wondered if anyone had any thoughts on breaking it in.........................warm up, then flat out on the dyno?, or slow and steady? oils?, there's plenty of info on the tinterweb but its all very contradictory i'm afraid, the bike is an ex mss supersport bike, with a newly built and tuned (ported) 636 motor, i'm hoping for good power, maybe 120bhp, it was 116bhp prior to porting and rebuild. I've read alot about making sure the rings are seated properly, and most sites on the internet say that manufacturers run-in procedures are too easy on the rings and can cause a poor seal. your thoughts are appreciated, i'll start another thread of the rebuild soon too! thanks Anthony http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq259/ant802/SDC10534-1.jpg http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq259/ant802/SDC105362.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansp1 Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 seen this ? food for thought... http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorenzo Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 I've heard break-in methods vary upon whether you're building for peak power or for long life... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 This is exactly how I ran in my motor after fitting the race kit parts & wiseco pistons (millemille's post). And I mean, exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregorious77 Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 did you find any big lumps of blued metal though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant802 Posted December 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 seen this ? food for thought... http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm thanks mate, yeh i've read that one a few times, his pistons sure look clean, i've never seen that before! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant802 Posted December 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Start the engine and let it warm up to operating temperature with no throttle. Turn off and let cool to cold. Start the engine and let it warm up blipping the throttle. Turn off and let cool. Start the engine, let it idle up to operating temperature, and either on a dyno or on the road never using more than 1/4 throttle and never letting the engine labour under load run it up the red line in every gear. Turn off and let cool. Start the engine, let it idle up to operating temperature, and either on a dyno or on the road never using more than 1/2 throttle and never letting the engine labour under load run it up the red line in every gear. Turn off and let cool. Drop the engine oil and check for big lumps of blued metal. If all is good put the oil back in. Start the engine, let it idle up to operating temperature, and either on a dyno or on the road never using more than 3/4 throttle and never letting the engine labour under load run it up the red line in every gear. Turn off and let cool. Start the engine, let it idle up to operating temperature, and either on a dyno or on the road using full throttle run it up the red line in every gear. Turn off and let cool. Drop the engine oil and check for big lumps of blued metal. Change the filter and put fresh oil in and kick the arse out of it. sounds interesting mille mille, i might give this a go, what oil are you using for break in? i take it you're using a non synthetic oil, maybe a car oil? Thanks Ant This is exactly how I ran in my motor after fitting the race kit parts & wiseco pistons (millemille's post). And I mean, exactly do you know what power you ended up getting? what engine etc? thanks Ant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxr renegade Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Be wary of car oils, its common to find they have friction reducers in them which will prevent you from acheiving a good piston-to-bore seal from the running in period (too much lubricity and leads to a "polishing" effect I understand?). Car oils may also affect your clutch if its a wet set-up. I understand that when bikes are new from the showroom, they use a cheap basic oil (mineral?) for those first 600 miles to ensure good interaction and wear between components. I'm not suggesting you use this sort of oil, someone with more informed knowledge can inform better, but fully synthetic oils will prevent the piston-bore "mating" Also I don’t think car engine oils are designed to be used in the gearbox as well as the engine so don’t have the same shear strength as bike oils causing the oil to ‘froth up’ which is baaaaaad. I can’t remember if I read that from a guy who worked for opie oils, or if I made it up though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant802 Posted December 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Be wary of car oils, its common to find they have friction reducers in them which will prevent you from acheiving a good piston-to-bore seal from the running in period (too much lubricity and leads to a "polishing" effect I understand?). Car oils may also affect your clutch if its a wet set-up. I understand that when bikes are new from the showroom, they use a cheap basic oil (mineral?) for those first 600 miles to ensure good interaction and wear between components. I'm not suggesting you use this sort of oil, someone with more informed knowledge can inform better, but fully synthetic oils will prevent the piston-bore "mating" yeh i read to avoid oils with molyebdenum, (spelling!), and to use a non-synthetic, the moly is bad for wet clutches and can ruin clutch plates, i'll probably go for some motorcycle mineral oil i think, thanks Ant Also I don’t think car engine oils are designed to be used in the gearbox as well as the engine so don’t have the same shear strength as bike oils causing the oil to ‘froth up’ which is baaaaaad. I can’t remember if I read that from a guy who worked for opie oils, or if I made it up though.... sounds genuine to me, thanks for the input mate. Ant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Another important question is what was used as an assembly lube and how long has the motor been sitting before being started... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant802 Posted December 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Another important question is what was used as an assembly lube and how long has the motor been sitting before being started... i used some semi-synth for assembly, the motor will be sat for a while before being run, probabaly once its shipped back to the uk, in the usa at the moment, so a few months yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 i used some semi-synth for assembly, the motor will be sat for a while before being run, probabaly once its shipped back to the uk, in the usa at the moment, so a few months yet. Hmmmm, well here's where I'm going to be maybe a little bit controversial and if it were my engine, I'd be taking it to bits again just before you're due to start it. 'Normal' oils don't have the clinging properties needed to stay in place when a fresh motor is sat standing after assembly. I build engines using a proper assembly lube, it's incredibly tacky and stays put in bores, journals, bearings etc. so there's important lube on first start up. Make or break time. Of course, you can turn the engine over for a while without firing it before you first run it, but I don't think that's ideal at all. Sorry, there's no way I'd be starting a fresh properly built engine after it had been sitting a few months, probably not even with assembly lube. Just my opinion though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronenige Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Sorry, there's no way I'd be starting a fresh properly built engine after it had been sitting a few months, probably not even with assembly lube. Just my opinion though... Just about every new bike then ? , Just saying , not judging one way or another Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Just about every new bike then ? , Just saying , not judging one way or another I knew someone would say that, and yes, genuinely if it were up to me I'd build every engine properly. Trouble is though, you ask any engine builder worth anything and they (should) tell you they turn a newly built engine over as little as possible. Degree'ing cams or whatever, they'll have a fit if it takes too many revs. With a 'standard' new bike, most of the damage is already done during assembly I wouldn't doubt, and then most of the planks that do the PDI's will likely do the rest. I believe you seal a fresh motor's fate within it's first few revolutions, not even minutes. Call me picky... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Just to add, every new bike is generally destined for road use, so it really just has to be reliable, that's the main concern agreed? Starting them and 'running them in' after being sat and draining, they'll still be fine, but the OP asked about his race engine so I'm presuming he wants as much power out of it, as well as reliability. That's why I'd rebuild it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayRC3045 Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 I Had an engine blue printed , the builder told me to put about 800 miles on it , get the bike up to temp , ride the 1st few 100 miles using upto 8k revs part throttle without letting the engine labour , and just increase the rev limit and throttle use as the miles are added , and by the time I've done about 800 it should of been ridden hard full throttle and full revs for the last few hundred , I didn't bother, i always warmed up to temp 1st then just let the fooker have it , HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant802 Posted December 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 Hmmmm, well here's where I'm going to be maybe a little bit controversial and if it were my engine, I'd be taking it to bits again just before you're due to start it. 'Normal' oils don't have the clinging properties needed to stay in place when a fresh motor is sat standing after assembly. I build engines using a proper assembly lube, it's incredibly tacky and stays put in bores, journals, bearings etc. so there's important lube on first start up. Make or break time. Of course, you can turn the engine over for a while without firing it before you first run it, but I don't think that's ideal at all. Sorry, there's no way I'd be starting a fresh properly built engine after it had been sitting a few months, probably not even with assembly lube. Just my opinion though... Well thanks for the reply, my main concern is seating the rings properly and having a good engine that makes good power, reliability is also a concern, however my engines get full rebuild once a season and the heads are usually off 4 times a season for a freshen up. I'm not concerned with my build technique, liberal fresh oil is used in the build phase, and minimal engine turning etc with no oil pressure, but i have to concur with 'ronenige's comment, rebuilding an engine everytime it is sat, in my opinion is not necessary, that would mean most bikes being laid up over winter would need a full rebuild? most marking on shell bearings happens on start up, and oil pressure is as near as instantaneous on a good motor. buy hey, you may work for bsb or motogp......................maybe you could come and build my engine 'properly'....................ooooooooooooo;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant802 Posted December 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 Just about every new bike then ? , Just saying , not judging one way or another , my thoughts exactly! , my previous build of this motor lasted 2 seasons, made 115bhp and hit 169mph at Daytona, so i can't be that bad at building them!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant802 Posted December 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 hello everyone!, i've just rebuild my race engine, zx636 06, new mains, big ends, new stock pistons, rings, valves, etc and wondered if anyone had any thoughts on breaking it in.........................warm up, then flat out on the dyno?, or slow and steady? oils?, there's plenty of info on the tinterweb but its all very contradictory i'm afraid, the bike is an ex mss supersport bike, with a newly built and tuned (ported) 636 motor, i'm hoping for good power, maybe 120bhp, it was 116bhp prior to porting and rebuild. I've read alot about making sure the rings are seated properly, and most sites on the internet say that manufacturers run-in procedures are too easy on the rings and can cause a poor seal. your thoughts are appreciated, i'll start another thread of the rebuild soon too! thanks Anthony http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq259/ant802/SDC10534-1.jpg http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq259/ant802/SDC105362.jpg some more pics for you: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMSMJ1 Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 That is a good looking mo'sickle fo sho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 , my thoughts exactly! , my previous build of this motor lasted 2 seasons, made 115bhp and hit 169mph at Daytona, so i can't be that bad at building them!! With the greatest of respect although I'm sure it won't be taken that way... So why were you asking for people's opinions on running in if you're happy with what you're doing now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 do you know what power you ended up getting? what engine etc? thanks Ant Only 120 at the wheel at the moment, but that's only becuase the cams need dialing in to the correct degrees, but valve to piston clearance was too tight to run what I needed. Engine is a ZXR750 motor, race kit valves & springs, Ti retainers and seats, ex-WSBK cams from Aaron Slights bike, +2mm Wiseco high comp pistons. Once I've sorted the valve to piston clearance problem I'll be able to get the cams dialed in to 105/105. That should see a bit more power, but it gives good drive from as low as 2k rpm, which with FCR's is pretty good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant802 Posted December 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 With the greatest of respect although I'm sure it won't be taken that way... So why were you asking for people's opinions on running in if you're happy with what you're doing now? well i'm asking for opinions on 'running in', not engine building, i'm sure you're engines are very fast indeed, i've used a miriad of running in techniques in the past, all resulting in minor blow past the rings, i'd like to eliminate this if possible, i'm just getting the general consensus. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant802 Posted December 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 Only 120 at the wheel at the moment, but that's only becuase the cams need dialing in to the correct degrees, but valve to piston clearance was too tight to run what I needed. Engine is a ZXR750 motor, race kit valves & springs, Ti retainers and seats, ex-WSBK cams from Aaron Slights bike, +2mm Wiseco high comp pistons. Once I've sorted the valve to piston clearance problem I'll be able to get the cams dialed in to 105/105. That should see a bit more power, but it gives good drive from as low as 2k rpm, which with FCR's is pretty good! Hey Barry, that sounds awesome mate, i have an ex stringer zx7rr n1, 793 cc, now 825cc with a wiseco 1.5mm kit, i had piston to valve clearance issues and had to get a spacer machined, quite simple, mine made 128bhp in its 793cc guise, i've not run it since rebuild, so i'm hoping for 135bhp maybe? how the hell did you get those kit parts? Ant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 i've not run it since rebuild, Might want to think about lubing that one too... If you've been suffering blowby before, regardless of run-in technique, maybe I'd look at the initial startup as that's most critical for ring seating. That is part of running in, hence my posting. It's a consequence of engine building. Take it or leave it though, makes no odds to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant802 Posted December 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 Might want to think about lubing that one too... If you've been suffering blowby before, regardless of run-in technique, maybe I'd look at the initial startup as that's most critical for ring seating. That is part of running in, hence my posting. It's a consequence of engine building. Take it or leave it though, makes no odds to me. well thanks for the advice, and yes, it would need lubing before startup, but there are ways around this without doing a full rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcaztls Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 well thanks for the advice, and yes, it would need lubing before startup, but there are ways around this without doing a full rebuild. And they all involve turning the engine over right? It's all good, as long as you're happy, I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liamo Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 either on a dyno or on the road never using more than 1/4 throttle and never letting the engine labour under load run it up the red line in every gear. Turn off and let cool. Forgive my ignorance, but I dont know any bikes that will make it to the red line in top gear on the road using 1/4 throttle or less. What am I missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedy sie Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 they will if you give them time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spannerman Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 Hmmmm, well here's where I'm going to be maybe a little bit controversial and if it were my engine, I'd be taking it to bits again just before you're due to start it. 'Normal' oils don't have the clinging properties needed to stay in place when a fresh motor is sat standing after assembly. I build engines using a proper assembly lube, it's incredibly tacky and stays put in bores, journals, bearings etc. so there's important lube on first start up. Make or break time. Of course, you can turn the engine over for a while without firing it before you first run it, but I don't think that's ideal at all. Sorry, there's no way I'd be starting a fresh properly built engine after it had been sitting a few months, probably not even with assembly lube. Just my opinion though... unfortunately i bought an r1 engine which had been refreshed months before i installed it in the bike, i didn't know this and installed it and fired it up it ran for a few seconds till the cam momentarilly seized and the chain jumped the cam sprocket bending the valves. told the guy what had happened and he apologized for not informing me it had been stood a while, he built me a new head and fitted it for free, he couldn't have done more for me, but take heed you may not be as lucky as i was. oh and by the way it was built with assembly lube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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