dawnrazor Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 Further to my previous thread about my recent Dyno time, turns out there was something to explain that.... a loose wire .....AAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH. Anyway, in other news, with the PCV fitted there is a flat spot if the throttle is snapped open where the secondary butterflies won't open correctly and stutter. If you roll on real gently all is well, but if you open it up from, say, 3000 RPM there is this big pause and it bogs right down and then picks up sharply. The Dyno guys were at a loss to explain it, but suggested it was a bad PC unit. So I'm returning it to where I got it, and getting a replacement one. They are also ordering a PCV and a PCIII if they can get one, and we'll see what happens. The thinking is that the bike was originally made to work with a PCIII. But Dynojet have said the PCV will work with my bike. It's all an enormous pain in the ring, but the dyne guys looked after me and didn't charge me too badly, considering they had the bike for 3 days, and have been working on it on and off during that time..... I think they did 500K's worth of dyno time...... So just wondering if anyone else has had a similar problem or has fitted a PCV to a GSXR1000 K5 K6 Thanks folks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronenige Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 What's it like without the pc , if it's not running perfect , ie as good as a standard one , then putting a pc on one will only confuse matters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 What's it like without the pc , if it's not running perfect , ie as good as a standard one , then putting a pc on one will only confuse matters runs fine without the PC, secondary butterflies work correctly etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 The secondary throttle butterflies are driven by a stepper motor which is controlled by the ECU, the ECU "looks" at several inputs to "decide" how much and how quickly to open the secondary butterflies. The most important input will be the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS), which tells the ECU how far and how quickly the primary butterflies, controlled directly by your hand twisting the throttle, have opened. The Power Commander does not - to the best of my knowledge - do anything to change the ECU's output to the secondary butterfly's stepper motor. The only point I can see where installing a Power Commander could induce a problem with the control of the secondary butterflies is if the TPS input into the ECU is being interfered with when you tap into the TPS wiring for the Power Commander. Are you sure the correct wire from the TPS, there's normally 3 wires to chose from, to the ECU was tapped into for the Power Commander? I have to believe that the PC was wired in correctly, it was fitted by a very experienced Dynojet Technician, who had the bike for 3 days and worked on it for quite a bit of that time, he also was in contact with Dynojet to make sure he had it hooked up correctly etc. I mean the guy knows his onions, but is more used to working on Harleys and Trumpets, was keen to work on a Jap bike though. I've returned the PCV and am getting a replacement sent back to be. Now if the replacement displays the same problem, then that's another thing entirely... From what you have said about the TPS, is it possible an intermittent fault would be causing my original fueling problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 I thought you said a loose wire had been found to explain your original fuelling problem? Did your dyno guy bring the fault code display up on the bike and see if any codes were logged? Sorry, the reason the bike began running on 3 cylinders on the Dyno, was down to a loose PC connector - he had wrongly assumed it was the plugs fouling, in fact they where fine. It was once this was fixed that he noticed this flat spot, whenever the throttle was shaped open. So he took the PC off and the Throotle response was perfect again. So he's assuming that the PC is faulty. Now he made a few comments to me about the throttle saying it was hard to hold it at a constant RPM, that it would open and close slightly on it's own, and he wondered if the TPS was reading accurately. Then you mention the TPS in context with the problem I'm having with the PC. I've got to thinking that my underlying problem, might be a faulty sensor. I only experience the backfiring or rough running on a neutral throttle or on a closed throttle during down shifting or braking say. If the TPS is not working correctly, will it effectively be telling the bike that we are at 15% throttle instead of 10% for example, will this then supply too much fuel into the engine for the given RPM and result in backfires, or indeed at idle, explain why it is cutting out because the engine is being given too much fuel at 1100RPM and effectively floods the engine, explaining why there is a strong smell of fuel when it is playing up. The baseline A/F on the DYNO was very good apparently, a little lean at low RPM neutral through the mid range and a little lean on the top, so we can establish that on a progressive dyno run the bike fuels fine, and indeed this is what I have found on the road, the bike runs fine on big throttle openings etc, but when I'm in commuting mode, low RPMs, 1,2 and 3rd gears - engine braking, decel, accel etc. This is when the fueling gets rough and I'll get backfires, after a bit it'll clear it's self and be fine, intact you can feel it, there is a point when the bike rights it's self and comes good, and then might say good for another 20 minutes, but for instance -I came off the motoway the other day after being riding along at 100Ks for 10 mins, 4th gear no problems. So on a near closed throttle I down shifted to the lights on engine braking arrived at the lights in 1st, clutch in and the bike cut out. It's then a bit of a bear to get started, but it will come back, if you then hold the throttle at 1500RPM, again in neutral - you can actually see the RPMs jump slightly on a fixed throttle and then the bike will idle fine. This is the original problem I have had all along, the garage have been convinced that it has been a fueling problem and have been tuning the ECM, their latest feeling is that they went too rich with it on the first attempts, so they have leaned it right off, something that has been reflected in the Dyno A/F. But it hasn't removed the issue. Thanks for your input MM, Sorry there has been a few red herrings along the way, but the fitting of the PC was meant to be the thing that fixed everything, I was convinced there was an underlying problem however, and I'm wondering now if a faulty TPS could be responsible for the conditions above and for the PC issue as well???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorenzo Posted August 12, 2011 Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 Out of interest do you have the OEM clutch lever still fitted? Ooh, cheeky, I like your line of thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 Out of interest do you have the OEM clutch lever still fitted? No........... It's a TITAX jobbie, recently fitted as it happens............ why......... Ooh, cheeky, I like your line of thinking. Wot?....... wot have I done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 Suzooks will change the ECU map if it senses that the clutch is in. Some aftermarket levers do not engage properly with the clutch switch. Also, some people disconnect the clutch switch. DO NO do this....you'll loose 500rpm off the top and have a less efficient map. Right I'll fit the OE lever tomorrow morning................. and if that fix's it, I will literally cry.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 There's a load of info about this over here It's mainly about the TL engine, but it also applies (AFAIK) to all Suzuki FI bikes. In brief, once the ECU senses the clutch is pulled in, it uses a special ignition and fuel map to make starting the engine easier. But with the clutch pulled in would it not remove the problem..... fuck, I do rest my hand on the clutch lever as well.... If's it's that sensitive.......buggery cock........................ In a way I sincerely hope you guys are right, but in another way I hope you're not...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 With the clutch pulled in, the ECU will run the starting map, which will make it well down on power and not fuel correctly at high revs. It might be worth checking the clutch switch. It's not unknown for them to fail. Oh man... Right I'll get the OE lever tomorrow and try and see if I can make it "go bad", if it's good, then I'm a tit - if not I'll get the the Clutch switch checked out..... I'll report back folks - so if this is the is the case, does this mean I can't use the aftermarket clutch or can it be adjusted out. Fuck I bet this is it, it was fine before I dropped it into the garage to have the braided lines fitted, and the mechanic adjusted the clutch as it had a lot of play in the cable...... and I think that's when all this started.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 Now.... would this explain the flat spot/secondary butterfly hesitation thing on the Dyno witht he PC fitted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 It's the clutch switch actuation you need to look at with the aftermarket clutch lever - if the clutch switch is not being operated when you pull the clutch lever in for the first time after starting the engine then the ECU will be permanently running with an enrichener trim table enabled and possibly altering how the secondary butterflies are opened, akin to having the choke enabled on a carbed bike. That's beginning to explain a lot...... will let you know what happens when the OE lever is popped on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 Okay - fitted the OE lever, the bike was still a bit rough initially - but then came good. However the current ECU settings are on the lean side, so on Monday I'm getting the ECU reset to factory and I thought for good measure I'd get a new Clutch switch fitted as well, in case I damaged my one fitting the clutch lever in the first place. But once I got the bike up to temp, it ran fine and I couldn't upset it and make it run rich. I'm hoping with the ECU reset that the "cold start" rough running I'm left with will disappear. Now just a couple of things that I can't explain. So if the bike has been running permanently in "enriched trim map" for awhile, it would explain why it's fouling the plugs, and it would explain the low gear low RPM bad fueling, and the intermittent nature and why it was more persistent on colder days. Now, how come the Dyno didn't see this, if anything the bike was making full power on the dyno... ah, with the PC plugged in, which would bypass the ECU. The A/F baseline would have looked good, because the ECU was running a lean map or the ECU was compensating for the trim map? Does that sound right. So assuming the PC was not faulty, and the bike was in start up map, with the PC connected - can we explain why the secondary butterflies weren't working correctly on a snapped open throttle??? Over to you guys - and many thanks to you all, I think we might be onto something here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 Just to add - I've had the bike out 3 times today, with the OE lever on, once on a cold engine, the other times on a bike that had been standing for awhile but wasn't completely cold. Each time it would start and idle at 1500, before dropping back to 1100RPM and I would take off, ensuring I had released the clutch lever completely within the first 10metres from starting. Within 1 minute of riding on suburban roads the bike runs rich, starts running rough won't idle, or the idle drops down to 900RPM (if I'm stationary obviously) and I have to hold it at 2000RPM to keep it from stalling and the needle is hunting. Then after 30 seconds of this bang it comes good, and no amount of similar riding can make it go bad again. So this is the main change I noticed since putting the OE lever on, before it would fuel badly off and on similar from cold start, but could just as easily do it again 10 minutes later. But now once it comes good that seems to be it I can't make it run rich again. Also, When it cut out on me the last time I had the bike out, I was able to pull over and I thought I know I'll turn off the engine with the key, and see what difference that makes - thinking it would reset the ECU. No difference at all, I still have trouble starting the bike, when I do get started it needs to be held at 2000RPM to stop it cutting out, then I take off and it comes good after a bit. I can say for sure that this does not appear to happen in 5th and 6th even on deceleration, but that 3rd down to 2nd is where it can go wrong. Is it possible the ECU has got screwed up - is there a way of resetting the ECU to factory, will this reset the fuel maps for all gears etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 Without sitting down and going through each and every line of code in the ECU it's impossible to know what exactly the warm up/neutral mapping causes the secondary butterfly control to do, but I'd hazard a guess that it will have some effect... You need to stop talking about it running rich or lean, without an A/F log you don't know what the fuelling is so stick to describing the symptoms. Get the ECU reflashed with the factory maps. Check the clutch switch with a multimeter before you arbitrarily replace it. Get the ECU in diagnostic mode and see what, if any, fault codes come up. You've not got a TRE fitted have you? If I understand correctly you went and bought the PC to correct the rough running and to possibly tweak the A/F to suit the exhaust? If that's the case why not get a refund on the PC and use the money to pay for the dyno time so far and just get the OEM ECU tweaked to suit the bike when you've put the Fi back to stock? Thanks MM. I know this is a frustration, and there have been some red herrings. The only reason I got the PC was on the advice of the garage, because they said it would cure all my issues.... But I'll take your advice, I'll get the ECU reflashed and get the clutch switch checked out, on Monday. I used to to have an Healtech XTRE fitted, but it was removed about 18 months ago... wait for it, because it went bad and started to effect the fueling......... it was taken out and the bike ran fine, so it was assumed that the unit had failed..... Cheers again, I'll let yo know how I get on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronenige Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 Just a quickie , they didn't tap into the secondary tps did they ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 Just a quickie , they didn't tap into the secondary tps did they ? You mean, the Dyno guys when they fitted the PC? I will check, he said he double checked the wiring with Dynojet, but I guess it possible. For the moment, I'm leaving the PC out of the equation - it was returned to Dynojet as a defective unit and a replacement has been dispatched. I won't fit it until I get this cold/warm start rough running problem ironed out, which I can make the bike do consistently now. Start, ride - up to 3rd, close throttle to decal down shift to 1st, pull in clutch lever and cut out. To start hold throttle at 2000RPM while hitting the starter, take off and after about 5-30 seconds you feel a little power surge and the bike is fine, idles at 1100 - can't make it do it again after that. Leave bike to cool down for an hour or two and bingo it does it again. ECU ref lash tomorrow, maybe that might be the trick... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorenzo Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Back to clutch levers and switches, is it as easy to find out if the lever or switch is still showing that it's pulled in with one simple test: Does it start with your hand off the clutch lever? I know mine won't start unless the lever's pulled in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 Back to clutch levers and switches, is it as easy to find out if the lever or switch is still showing that it's pulled in with one simple test: Does it start with your hand off the clutch lever? I know mine won't start unless the lever's pulled in. Yeah I have to pull the lever in on my bike to start it.... safety feature thing. The local garage has another '06 on the floor and they are going to pull some parts from it, and swap them out for parts on mine to see if they can eliminate the issue and rule out areas. They have already checked the injectors and all the more obvious stuff. I'm hoping that either the new clutch switch or ref lashing the ECU might bring some results.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorenzo Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 If your bike won't start unless the lever's in then your switch is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 If your bike won't start unless the lever's in then your switch is fine. yeah I think the question is whether or not it was being released completely when the clutch was let out, but i agree the clutch switch might not be the problem... Will report back tomorrow once I've talked to the garage, in the morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorenzo Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 It's a switch, it's only got 2 positions, on or off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Well it's not the clutch switch, although the garage was convinced it was, they replaced the old one, which was damaged and very notchy, and they were sure they had nailed it, I picked it up, got it home and it cut out on me, (I don't live far from the garage). Used ti to go to work later, and just about made it there, it was running so badly. My theory is that it's temperature related, almost like the ECU is using the wrong settings for a particular temperature, but that could be nonsense. Anyway the garage has it again, and I have an SV650S instead. I have asked them to ref lash the ECU, but I didn't get a chance to ask them if they had done that. In other news they aren't charging me for any of the time, as they have miss diagnosed the problem in the first place and I paid plenty early on when they though it was just running rich. So that's something I suppose. Any ideas folks??? cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Have been trawling the internet looking for GSXRs with cold start problems and have found a few folks with similar issues, some just sound like the "cold" idle speed is set too low, and that's not a problem I'm having, although my cold idle is not as high as some folks suggest to run it 2500RPM for a cold idle seems a bit rich, excuse the pun. So I don't think I'll adjust that. However one chap, had his Idle Control Sensor and Sensor that controls the air/fuel mix (what's that called?) replaced and either between them both or one of these cured his problems, and his were very similar symptoms to mine, no FI light, cold start stalling, smell of gas, rough running and so on and so forth, it as very similar. What are anyones thoughts about about either of those two sensors? Oh btw, not sure if this is a factor, but I'm pretty sure my bike is a US spec bike, as opposed to a EU spec... again might be a red herring. Welcome any thoughts on the matter from any of the Suzuki gurus here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronenige Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 It would benefit from being plugged into suzuki's diagnostic thingummybob and have a look at what the actual readings from the sensors are , so long as they are within the operating parameters they will not flash up a fault code but this doesn't mean they are reading correctly , things like atmospheric pressure and air temp sensors can have a huge effect on fuelling , if its reading -10 when its + 25 it will be way off , you need summat like this http://www.probike.co.uk/im080002b.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 It would benefit from being plugged into suzuki's diagnostic thingummybob and have a look at what the actual readings from the sensors are , so long as they are within the operating parameters they will not flash up a fault code but this doesn't mean they are reading correctly , things like atmospheric pressure and air temp sensors can have a huge effect on fuelling , if its reading -10 when its + 25 it will be way off , you need summat like this http://www.probike.co.uk/im080002b.htm Well the bike is with the Suzuki dealer, and they are determined to get to the bottom - I've found several other folks with a similar problem in the US and have PM'd them to see if they managed to rectify the issue. One guy swears that if I change the cold and warm idle speeds to 2500 and 1300 respectively it'll sort my problem, but I can't see how that would work. Might give it a go anyway as it's an easy thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svingel Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 Does the US models have different, as in extreme/hysterical, emission controls? Extra hoses, sensors, Greenpeace approved shite, that recycles exhaust gasses through your body, to save the planet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Does the US models have different, as in extreme/hysterical, emission controls? Extra hoses, sensors, Greenpeace approved shite, that recycles exhaust gasses through your body, to save the planet? The Californian version certainly has a bunch of that gubbins, but not the regular US spec ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 So let's see what you guys make of this. The bike shop have had my bike for a week now, and have had it pulled apart, all the sensors unplugged and still it fuels horribly under 75 degrees, once it's warmed up - it's fine. So all roads are pointing to the ECU having gone nuts. Here's the rub, you can't return ECUs to Suzuki once ordered, so if it doesn't fix the problem... the ECU costs over $3000NZ (about 1500 quid)... But the bike is getting worse, now they can't even get it to start!!!! I've a standing offer on a trade in on my bike against a new GSXR 750, it means a big outlay for me, but if I spend another 3K on my bike especially after throwing new discs, tires, braided lines and sprockets and chain at it... oh and that's not counting the Power Commander, that I had to return to Dynojet, which is probably okay... COCK AND BALLS! What do we reckon folks? I'm being offered a good price on my bike, as good as if it was running perfectly, I wouldn't expect to get much more..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawnrazor Posted August 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Thanks milliemille. Garage convinced it's an ECU, now it's their problem as I've traded it in against a 750 see http://pbmagforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=30960 In other news thought the PCV I bought WAS faulty and Dynojet have replaced it, and I'm getting my money back on that one! I need to cut and run on this problem, I can't throw anymore time or cash at it. It's such a pity, but I feel I'm out of choices, and the trade in, is decent enough... I was thinking about the 750 , but maybe next year, so I'm doing this a year early is all. thanks for your advice and I'm sorry to hear about your business - I hope things look up in the future for you. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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