Fix my blade & earn money.

[Bernster]

O.K! Seriously, I'll pay ca£h to someone who can resolve this particular problem.

I’m hoping a combined pool of resources may fix this problem and enable me to enjoy what is left of the remainder of Summer / Autumn commuting to work.

Those that have owned an older, perhaps ageing CBR 929 RRY will know of the well documented Honda fopar’ of fitting substandard, poor quality stator motors to this year of Fireblade resulting in replacement rocker cover gaskets being needed at an alarming rate.

The above although now rectified has produced a new issue while being ridden, that of my CBR 929 RRY only firing on cylinders 2 and 3, not 1 and 4.

Now I’ve tried absolutely everything I can think of and followed pretty much every known fix for similar symptom problems, but no joy.

>There’s a spark to all cylinders, healthy one too, new plugs tested with old plugs not to mention a mixture.

>Coil packs have been tested for continuity as well as being swapped round with the working cylinders and those from dysfunctional cylinders 1 and 4 work in cylinders 2 and 3.

>Compression tests shows all is perfect.

>Harness from the CDI / ECU through to the loom connecting the coil packs successfully passes continuity checks.

>Coil pack loom tested through to the coil packs for continuity.

>Injection rail removed and fuel pressure to each injector is there.

>Injectors removed and cleaned while removed.

>Fuel flow valve is not weak and does not have a faulty diaphragm, (another documented issue with this year of bike).

>CDI / ECU put into diag mode and test errors produced by disconnecting the exhaust valve connector from the loom and error recorded, (showing ECU able to detect errors) / subsequent successfully cleared from ECU / CDI log – this I would prove that perhaps the ECU / CDI is functioning correctly otherwise it would be reporting a problem elsewhere for this particular problem.

>Fuel is going into the none firing cylinders, there’s also a spark but no combustion.

>Spraying ‘Easy Start’ in to the working cylinders floods and the engine halts, (expected) – performing the same test on cylinders 1 and 4 results in no change, they don’t fire up or do anything.

I’m now completely lost and the bike has already been off the road since being promised to PB for a road test, some 3 months now and I’m wondering where to go next.

Friends at a main Honda dealer, (apparently specialist mechanics too who) – don’t have a clue and are stuck as I am.

Any ideas?

[Sprockets]

Seems this era blade had some issues! I had a very similar problem on a 954 in the workshop a few months back with a misfire on cylinder 2 with all the usual suspects checking out.

Does the bike clear with increased throttle opening or does it remain?

Cutting to the chase with my example, it always felt like a massive inbalance on the throttle bodies, but numerous sessions with the vacuum guages and flow meter said otherwise, but easy start always perked it up. New bodies cured it. Still to this day not 100% sure why as the customer took the old bodies back before I could truly investigate.

You've done all the sensible things. In my case it was an excess of air (hence easy start perking it up) Seems yours might have a lack of air.

Just an idea

-Gavin

[Bernster]

Seems this era blade had some issues! I had a very similar problem on a 954 in the workshop a few months back with a misfire on cylinder 2 with all the usual suspects checking out.

Does the bike clear with increased throttle opening or does it remain?

Cutting to the chase with my example, it always felt like a massive inbalance on the throttle bodies, but numerous sessions with the vacuum guages and flow meter said otherwise, but easy start always perked it up. New bodies cured it. Still to this day not 100% sure why as the customer took the old bodies back before I could truly investigate.

You've done all the sensible things. In my case it was an excess of air (hence easy start perking it up) Seems yours might have a lack of air.

Just an idea

-Gavin

Cheers chap, it doesn't matter where it rev's to, the bike will only fire on the cylinders 2 and 3.

Today all the checks were done without the tank fitted or airbox in place, just a carb balancer fuel bladder installed with the throttle bodies in view.

It's got me and some quality bike mechanics absolutely stumped, in fact it's starting to root to my mates bike shop's bench.

Edit: 'A' key has now fell off my keyboard so half those words that needed 'a' had no 'a'.

[wavydavy]

I know it sounds really dumb, but given all the things you have checked it just sounds like something so simple it might not have registered...

When you checked the spark to 1 & 4, i take it you checked with the plugs outside the motor....

Are the caps (are they coil in cap jobs as well?) fully seated when the plugs are in their threads and the caps/coils are pushed on?

Is it at all possible that leads 1 & 4 are just a mm or two short and, when fully push-fitted, the contact is lost?

Its a long time (like 22 years) since I did bike mechanics at Stockport College (when they didn't let use touch 'new fangled' water cooled stuff even), but if all else checks out it *has* to be a simple thing like a connection that no longer connects when in the 'proper' position....

[edit to add] I suggested you check this as I have just had this very same problem with my chainsaw - after servicing it it wouldn't go again, even though all was, supposedly, much better than before (when it did run). Turns out I pulled the plug cap/HT lead connection out by a gnat's fart and that was enough to spoil the spark.... [/edit]

[Bernster]

I know it sounds really dumb, but given all the things you have checked it just sounds like something so simple it might not have registered...

When you checked the spark to 1 & 4, i take it you checked with the plugs outside the motor....

Are the caps (are they coil in cap jobs as well?) fully seated when the plugs are in their threads and the caps/coils are pushed on?

Is it at all possible that leads 1 & 4 are just a mm or two short and, when fully push-fitted, the contact is lost?

Its a long time (like 22 years) since I did bike mechanics at Stockport College (when they didn't let use touch 'new fangled' water cooled stuff even), but if all else checks out it *has* to be a simple thing like a connection that no longer connects when in the 'proper' position....

[edit to add] I suggested you check this as I have just had this very same problem with my chainsaw - after servicing it it wouldn't go again, even though all was, supposedly, much better than before (when it did run). Turns out I pulled the plug cap/HT lead connection out by a gnat's fart and that was enough to spoil the spark.... [/edit]

Nothing had changed to make cylinders 1 and 4 stop working, the bike hadn't been altered. Multiple checks were done with three set's of plugs including the original previously still working ones. There are no leads to speak of, just the loom branching to the coil pack loom, from each which the coil packs connect and they're electrical clip connectors that make a reasuring 'click' when connecting, plus there's a healthy spark there too.

The spark from the plug is exactly the same from the two working cylinders as the none working cylinders regardless of which coil pack used and plug configuration, a healthy blue / white sparking all the way through to the end of the electrode.

They've been connected, reconnected many times now but still no good no matter which configuration.

I would have thought if there was no spark or a reduced quality of spark to the two outer cylinders, (1 and 4) - that it could have been prevented by the ECI / CDI but fuel and a healthy spark is there.

Pretty much got us all completely flummoxed. It is indeed a strange one.

[chance]

id be checking the pick up and all the wiring from it. im betting something is failing once under load and hence causing a loss of spark. the fact thats is 1 and 4 tells me its almost certainly spark related

[Bernster]

id be checking the pick up and all the wiring from it. im betting something is failing once under load and hence causing a loss of spark. the fact thats is 1 and 4 tells me its almost certainly spark related

see above, it has a spark, healthy one at that on all four, they meter out all the same, i'm glad it's got heads scratching.

[Gregorious77]

Sounds like an odd timing issue to me. if the fuel doesnt fire at the right time or the spark doesnt fire at the right time there will be no bang.

Is there a problem with the pickup for those 2 cylinders?

thats my guess anyway most likely spark timing.

[TriGGer]

Does sound like timing. Don't know Hondas but if they don't run wasted spark, then possibly 1 & 4 are firing at the same time as 2 & 3 due to some other pulse related problem.

What happens if you put 1 & 4 caps(and loom) onto 2 & 3 ? Do 2 & 3 still run ?

[Bernster]

Does sound like timing. Don't know Hondas but if they don't run wasted spark, then possibly 1 & 4 are firing at the same time as 2 & 3 due to some other pulse related problem.

What happens if you put 1 & 4 caps(and loom) onto 2 & 3 ? Do 2 & 3 still run ?

Yup!

[Bernster]

Have you taken the cam cover off and turned the engine over by hand on the crankshaft and checked all of the valves are opening and closing at the correct time and by the correct amount in relation to the crank position?

Timeing checked and all spot on, why this would move without human intervention tho?

[dsracing]

Mate had a similarish problem on his RR2.

He went through 4 main dealers and hundreds of pounds and they were all stumped

Took an old school mechanic 10 mins to diagnose.

Turns out part of the loom had rubbed on the chassis causing a pinprick hole in the insulation on one of the wires and it was shorting on said frame.

Very hard to see but a bit of heatwrap over the wire cured the problem permanetly.

May not be the cause of your particular problem but sounds similar so worth a shot?

[Bernster]

Mate had a similarish problem on his RR2.

He went through 4 main dealers and hundreds of pounds and they were all stumped

Took an old school mechanic 10 mins to diagnose.

Turns out part of the loom had rubbed on the chassis causing a pinprick hole in the insulation on one of the wires and it was shorting on said frame.

Very hard to see but a bit of heatwrap over the wire cured the problem permanetly.

May not be the cause of your particular problem but sounds similar so worth a shot?

Cheers matey, we've checked the continuity of the wiring from the CDI to the coil packs, might be worth seeing if there are some sensor wires that it could be failing on instead though, good point. I think it might be worth getting the majority of the loom out and tracing all the sundries from that.

Fuel injection, as my mate said; "If this were carb fed you'd be off up the road by now".

[Bernster]

A continuity check wont necessarily throw up a short against the frame when the bike is running (on 2), will take inspection of the wiring.

I'll book a day off this week and spend the day faulty wire spotting

[dsracing]

Come to think of it,I think his problem was when the wire was shorting it was causing a TPS fault code which was putting the bike into a 'limp' mode.

I should be speaking to him over the next day or so so I'll see if I can glean any more info.

[Bernster]

Come to think of it,I think his problem was when the wire was shorting it was causing a TPS fault code which was putting the bike into a 'limp' mode.

I should be speaking to him over the next day or so so I'll see if I can glean any more info.

Nothing recorded in the ECU log, and I can generate entries in there and clear them, plus no fuses blown.

[dsracing]

Nothing recorded in the ECU log, and I can generate entries in there and clear them, plus no fuses blown.

Ok,I'll make sure I speak to him in the next day or so and get all the info I can.

[kaighn80]

had a problem with the ktm engined mito that sounds very similar to this, checked the plug out of the engine and it had a whopping great spark (so i thought) but when it was in the engine it just span over without firing, i had had it working prior to laying it up for a while, what had happened was a layer of aluminium oxide had built up between the coil earth and the frame, so the coil wasn't earthing properly, once i cleaned that off and re mounted the coil it fired first spin, even easystart wouldn't fix that one for me.

[Bernster]

I don't mean timing, I mean you put a degree wheel on the crankshaft and a long probe DTI down the spark plug hole of No1 cylinder and find TDC. You then put the DTI on each of the 16 cam lobes whilst turning over the crank and check that each valve starts opening, closing and achieving maximum lift at the correct position of the crank. Also check your valve clearances.....

If you've got, as you say, fuel and a spark and compression then the only thing that can be preventing ignition is something wrong with the inlet/exhaust timing, which a compression test won't neccesarily show because you are running the engine through several rotations.

Why would this move? Off the top of my head, knackered CCT, worn cam chain tensioner blade, camshaft gear mounting boss moving on camshaft.......

Ronenige suggested timing last night, cheers for the list, as you rightly say if it's got fuel and a spark then something relating to timing would be the next best avenue.

[ronenige]

Just popped in and had a quick shufty at it , it does run on 1 and 4 but very poorly , with the airbox off it actually blows through the air bleed vents on 1 and 4 whereas it , as you'd expect , sucks on the other 2 and if you block these off the motor stops , with the Indiana connected we rebalanced the throttle bodies and it made no real difference but the vacuum was really low , Usual causes of this are incorrect valve timing or tight valves but the blowing back thro the air bleeds suggests , initially , that the timing has slipped but strange that that it is only 1 and 4 , Webbo is gonna recheck the cam timing when it cool's down and hopefully let me know

[Bernster]

Just popped in and had a quick shufty at it , it does run on 1 and 4 but very poorly , with the airbox off it actually blows through the air bleed vents on 1 and 4 whereas it , as you'd expect , sucks on the other 2 and if you block these off the motor stops , with the Indiana connected we rebalanced the throttle bodies and it made no real difference but the vacuum was really low , Usual causes of this are incorrect valve timing or tight valves but the blowing back thro the air bleeds suggests , initially , that the timing has slipped but strange that that it is only 1 and 4 , Webbo is gonna recheck the cam timing when it cool's down and hopefully let me know

I knew you popping in would have him doing somehting Your the man, papers of the queens heads on it's way over

[bignige]

hasn't waving ten pounds notes fixed this yet?

Yes, i've seen it for sale!

No one is that busy that they can resist money, its their job innit...

Fix, then sell.

Good Luck!

[Bernster]

hasn't waving ten pounds notes fixed this yet?

Yes, i've seen it for sale!

No one is that busy that they can resist money, its their job innit...

Fix, then sell.

Good Luck!

Cheers

I'm lucky in having a couple of the worlds best resources at my disposal, however I'm aware they have families, (one having a 3 week old baby), jobs and thus not as much time as I know they'd like to give in helping to solve the problem, (hence why it's not fixed yet) - so I'm sure they could fix it in a matter of minutes. . . . . Hence the reason for seeing if anyone wanted to 'take on the task' and buy it cheaper than I would be selling it for once it was fixed.

However after having my belt buckles removed and my pants partially pulled to one side, (thankfully before their cock got anywhere near my arse) - I've decided to perhaps no longer sell and instead wait it out.