TZR 250 3XV

[Hendo]

190 upper, 260 lower as standard

[Hendo]

Cured the exhausts in the big oven this morning and got them fitted -

Really not happy with the finished colour but I can't be arsed to change it. They'll be filthy within 5 miles anyways. I suspect the finish isn't going to hold up very well either but we'll see.

Was recommended this stuff to seal the flanges to the exhaust itself. Nothing looks worse than oily dribbles -

Put in some bigger jets too, 230 upper and 280 lower.

I may even insure it tonight!

[Hendo]

£82, insured fully comp. The joys of getting older, along with owning an old bike

[trackdaybob]

3 hours ago, Hendo said:

Really not happy with the finished colour

Neither am I  

[Hendo]

Quick run out today, first time properly for a looooong time.

Having put the bigger jets in it, it is now much less eager in the top end. It does still rev out but its lost its 'zing'.

Its also quite fluffy rolling back onto the throttle, and has quite a lot of black splooge coming out of the silencers (although this could be down to me warming it up on the drive quite often during its lay-up)

I believe all these are a sign of rich running? I know plug chops are the answer but I had limited time today. It'll be going to PM Tuning on the dyno soon, but it would be nice to get it in a rough ballpark first.

In other news, the front brakes really are shocking. Shockingly good! They always has been incredible brakes but I think its getting to the stage where the front forks are struggling to cope, so that's another job on the 2016 winter strip-down.

[Hendo]

MOT passed today. Gave it a run around the block with the smaller jets in - 220 upper cylinder (up 3 sizes), 260 lower cylinder (same as standard).

Its got its zing back anyways. Sunday is looking to be a nice day here so hoping to get some plug chops done.

I am becoming quite aware of just how top-endy it is now, the pipes give it a lovely rush from 10,000RPM to the red-line. However it has done this at the expense of what feels like an awful lot of mid-range torque. With the standard pipes on it had much more mid-range, but not as much shove at the top. I was totally aware this was going to be the case so no surprises really.

Unless your going 10/10ths all the time I can see it becoming quite tiring, so time will tell if they stay on, or I revert back to the standard pipes.

The main thing is the Martin Johnson pipes are a shade over 5KG lighter than the standard pipes, which is something I'm struggling to ignore.

[Martin77]

Yeah, they do that with that spec engine and the -00 cdi. Adding a stepped woodruff key for more advance makes it better (I may have one that fits here, though not sure of the 3XV key dimensions), but it really needs either a sugo cdi or prog unit. That way you can get the pv's working to suit the new spec, and it'll fill in the midrange a treat, plus the ignition curve gives you a better top end too.

 

[Hendo]

4 minutes ago, Martin77 said:

Yeah, they do that with that spec engine and the -00 cdi. Adding a stepped woodruff key for more advance makes it better (I may have one that fits here, though not sure of the 3XV key dimensions), but it really needs either a sugo cdi or prog unit. That way you can get the pv's working to suit the new spec, and it'll fill in the midrange a treat, plus the ignition curve gives you a better top end too.

 

Hi Martin.

It already has a 4 degree advance key fitted that I got off Wullie on the TZR forum. It did make a noticeable difference when I fitted it.

I was trying to avoid the programmable ignition route, purely because I don't really have the knowledge to tune and set it all up properly, and there isn't a decent dyno local to me.

However if your telling me there may be even more to come out of this engine yet, then its something I may explore this coming winter.

Cheers!

[2T Institue]

1 hour ago, Hendo said:

Hi Martin.

It already has a 4 degree advance key fitted that I got off Wullie on the TZR forum. It did make a noticeable difference when I fitted it.

I was trying to avoid the programmable ignition route, purely because I don't really have the knowledge to tune and set it all up properly, and there isn't a decent dyno local to me.

However if your telling me there may be even more to come out of this engine yet, then its something I may explore this coming winter.

Cheers!

Programmable ignition is a doddle it is best to tune on a dyno but there are plenty of 3xv's that have. Then if you ask nicely and offer some beer or beer vouchers you can get a file/settings to load into your ignition of your choice and away you go.

[Martin77]

Yeah, it's not as frightening as you imagine, you can out in a safe ignition map, and a lot will come from the pv timing. It will make it a lot better through the 8-10k range. I mean, still not as much bottom end as a bone stock R bike, but very useable all the same.

[dannn]

On 08/04/2016 at 10:04 AM, Hendo said:

Hi Martin.

It already has a 4 degree advance key fitted that I got off Wullie on the TZR forum. It did make a noticeable difference when I fitted it.

I was trying to avoid the programmable ignition route, purely because I don't really have the knowledge to tune and set it all up properly, and there isn't a decent dyno local to me.

However if your telling me there may be even more to come out of this engine yet, then its something I may explore this coming winter.

Cheers!

You need to be careful advancing the entire map. Yes it will give a much needed increase in the midrange however your probably running to much advance at the top end now which is not good plus it will kill over rev.

Buy an Ignitech - put a standard map in it and then increase the mid range by 4 degrees as a starting point. Step two might be to extend the midrange advance. This is more or less what I did on my RG500 - I did the map by looking at others and programmed it and then tested on dyno.

I wrote some software to help me compare ignition maps and produce detailed graphs:

Dan

 

[Martin77]

The stock 00 curve is massively retarded at the top end Dan, it's a flat 7 degrees after 10k,  hence adding 4 degrees isn't as much of a step as it would be on 'most' bikes.

[Hendo]

I really do have very little idea of what all this ignition curve talk is but I like it. I get the impression my ignition set-up is currently quite safe...?

Every blow-up is a minimum of £500 really, so you can see why I'm not too keen to fiddle with things I don't fully understand.

[Martin77]

The stock -00 cdi is very safe yes, because it's one of the ways Yamaha restricted it for the Japanese market. Adding 4 degrees makes it better at the top end, but still not an ideal curve for the engine. Also, the -00 pv curve suits the restricted engine/pipes, so things don't quite match with the revvier pipes. The combination these things is what's making it quite peaky at the moment.

Although, I understand the concern re. the expense of a rebuild, it kind of depends how much you love the bike.. or what you ultimately want from it.

 

[dannn]

1 hour ago, Martin77 said:

The stock 00 curve is massively retarded at the top end Dan, it's a flat 7 degrees after 10k,  hence adding 4 degrees isn't as much of a step as it would be on 'most' bikes.

Out of pure interest do you have the map figures for the 3XV us to look at ?

For comparison here are the figures for my RG500. As you can see advancing the RG500 map 4 or even 6 degrees pushes the top end advance to between 15 and 17 at the top end which is crazy but still no matter how many times I point this out people still do it. Not only are they risking det (especially if being held flat out/full throttle) but it completely kills the over rev which I proved on the dyno.

Standard map:

 1800 - 12.5
 3000 - 26
 6000 - 26
 9500 - 11

My Map:

  500 - 14
 1700 - 14
 2700 - 31
 6000 - 30
 9700 - 15
10800 - 12
11100 -  9
11500 -  8
12500 -  6
 

Dan

[Hendo]

42 minutes ago, Martin77 said:

Although, I understand the concern re. the expense of a rebuild, it kind of depends how much you love the bike.. or what you ultimately want from it.

 

Maximum power, minimal outlay

So did my first plug chop today. I think I'm too lean?  Warmed the bike up for about 10miles on the old plugs. Changed to the new plugs, then straight into a 0.5mile flat out redline run, almost getting up to max revs in 5th. Then clutch in, hit kill-switch and coast to a stop. Should I have maybe done a longer run?

Top Plug -

Bottom Plug -

Top plug has a white deposit build up which scrapes off with a fingernail. Nothing on the porcelain. Bottom plug has a kind of white powder on it, and a very slight brown mark on the porcelain.

Ive noticed today aswell that it hits what feels like a limiter at 12,000RPM, pop,pop,pop,pop,pop if you try and hold it there. Is this the lack of over-run we were talking about earlier?

All advice appreciated.

 

[Martin77]

43 minutes ago, dannn said:

Out of pure interest do you have the map figures for the 3XV us to look at ?

 

Taken from the TZR forum, a guy in Germany has mapped the various 3XV ignitions..

[Hendo]

Sunny Sundays really are a nightmare on a motorcycle ain't they? I'm usually out and back in by 10am but being on call this morning meant I couldn't get out until after 2PM. Went over Hartside pass, and saw some seriously shit riding. Why do people feel they need to buzz past so close that I can feel the heat of their exhaust, when there is absolutely nothing coming the other way? And if you absolutely have to pass, please don't fuck up the next 3 miles of decent corners for me by 50 pencing your way around them. I saw a lot of 50 pencing today . There was no chance of maintaining smooth (not fast) progress.

Rant over. Sunny weekend afternoon riding isn't for me.

So after asking about on the TZR forum it turns out the pop,pop,popping at 12,000RPM is most likely the rev limiter. The posh moto box that I installed years ago was meant to do away with the limiter but it would seem its not working.

Which is a shame as it really gets going at 10,000RPM, and it feels like its about to really, really get going at 11,300RPM onwards before the rev limiter rudely interrupts.

The lack of mid range with the pipes on its getting a bit tiresome, I suppose the next stage is going to be a programmable ignition to try and fill in the gaps. I believe it will also do away with the rev limiter too.

The pipes however are fantastic when your wanting to really press on, but even overtaking cars now requires you to drop 3 gears, and get it screaming into a frantic rush to get past. Its not so easy to keep under the radar when the bike will only work at maximum attack, not to mention the noise it creates for everyone within a mile to hear! I can almost sense the car driver tutting as I'm overtaking lol.

Settle on 240/270 jets for now. I also backed the oil pump off a tad as the end pipes were getting really, really oily. 60 miles covered today has shown a good improvement - with no siezeing...

Next stop, dyno time.

[Kayla]

Doesn't the POSH/M-Max only do away with the Japanese speed restriction (180km/h or 112mph) on these? And maybe the standard ignition curve is designed to work with the standard cylinder and pipes (with max power at around 10,500-ish?) From the graphs it looks like they all drop dead at 12000rpm which is when yours feels like it's just got going. Programmable ignition (and more frequent rebuilds) ahoy!

[Hendo]

40 minutes ago, Kayla said:

Doesn't the POSH/M-Max only do away with the Japanese speed restriction (180km/h or 112mph) on these?

Thats a very good point, it will easily go upto 120MPH (indicated), so maybe the 12,000RPM in top is 112MPH actual? I think it may be something to do with the electronic optic board in the back of the existing KPH speedo that Ive done away with to fit a MPH clock. The posh moto was meant to replicate the KPH clock, and its electronics still being there.

Either way, it stops dead, but sounds glorious as is doing it

I'm off to the TZR forum to ask more questions!

[Kayla]

15 hours ago, Hendo said:

Thats a very good point, it will easily go upto 120MPH (indicated), so maybe the 12,000RPM in top is 112MPH actual? I think it may be something to do with the electronic optic board in the back of the existing KPH speedo that Ive done away with to fit a MPH clock. The posh moto was meant to replicate the KPH clock, and its electronics still being there.

Either way, it stops dead, but sounds glorious as is doing it

I'm off to the TZR forum to ask more questions!

The CDI (ignition) would need the standard speedo and all the associated gubbins to 'know' when to stop the party though- if you don't have the standard km/h speedo and the electronics fitted, how would the CDI know what speed you're doing?

If the 3XV restriction works like the FZR400 restriction then (on switch on with the key) the CDI needs to 'see' that the speedo wiring is in place (ie a zero speed signal), then as you move off it needs to see the speedo needle move off from zero into the 'allowed' range (anything up to 180km/h), then when the needle starts to move past 180km/h it will retard the ignition to keep the speed down. You can get past the speed restriction by-

1. trimming or moving the upper limit inside the speedo
2. using a mechanical speedo cable converter (usually a gold one that fits between the speedo drive and cable to gear it down to the speedo reads low)
3. using a POSH or M-Max box
4. butchered CDI

As the bike's pulling well past what would normally fun time on a standard bike I reckon it's the ignition that's holding things back- it's usually the pipes and porting that stop them revving so high rather than a programmed limit and if the jetting's a little rich up there that'd help bring things to a stop as well. It's part of how Mitos and RSs are restricted, they're jetted slightly rich to idiot proof/stop them revving (along with other stuff).

[Hendo]

Dont quote me on this, but I think if the CDI doesnt see the optic at start up, it automatically caps the revs at 12,000RPM in all gears full stop to stop folk getting around the speed restriction by just disconnecting the speedo.

They have made it foolproof really.

Im going to trim the optic on the standard speedo to see if that solves it. 

[Kayla]

Ah, I see. I know the FZR400s do that (12,500?) but I didn't know the TZRs did that too  It's a blinking flipping tricky one to get round!

[2T Institue]

22 hours ago, Hendo said:

Sunny Sundays really are a nightmare on a motorcycle ain't they? I'm usually out and back in by 10am but being on call this morning meant I couldn't get out until after 2PM. Went over Hartside pass, and saw some seriously shit riding. Why do people feel they need to buzz past so close that I can feel the heat of their exhaust, when there is absolutely nothing coming the other way? And if you absolutely have to pass, please don't fuck up the next 3 miles of decent corners for me by 50 pencing your way around them. I saw a lot of 50 pencing today . There was no chance of maintaining smooth (not fast) progress.

Rant over. Sunny weekend afternoon riding isn't for me.

So after asking about on the TZR forum it turns out the pop,pop,popping at 12,000RPM is most likely the rev limiter. The posh moto box that I installed years ago was meant to do away with the limiter but it would seem its not working.

Which is a shame as it really gets going at 10,000RPM, and it feels like its about to really, really get going at 11,300RPM onwards before the rev limiter rudely interrupts.

The lack of mid range with the pipes on its getting a bit tiresome, I suppose the next stage is going to be a programmable ignition to try and fill in the gaps. I believe it will also do away with the rev limiter too.

The pipes however are fantastic when your wanting to really press on, but even overtaking cars now requires you to drop 3 gears, and get it screaming into a frantic rush to get past. Its not so easy to keep under the radar when the bike will only work at maximum attack, not to mention the noise it creates for everyone within a mile to hear! I can almost sense the car driver tutting as I'm overtaking lol.

Settle on 240/270 jets for now. I also backed the oil pump off a tad as the end pipes were getting really, really oily. 60 miles covered today has shown a good improvement - with no siezeing...

Next stop, dyno time.

Oil out the pipes is nothing to do with the amount of oil used it is a sign of the oil not being burnt completely through incorrect jetting and ignition timing. If your wanting some mid range make a 10mm spacer to fit between the flange and the cylinder.

[Tony B]

11 hours ago, Hendo said:

Dont quote me on this, but I think if the CDI doesnt see the optic at start up, it automatically caps the revs at 12,000RPM in all gears full stop to stop folk getting around the speed restriction by just disconnecting the speedo.

They have made it foolproof really.

Im going to trim the optic on the standard speedo to see if that solves it. 

I've a mechanical converter you can have for the price of a couple of pints...

[Hendo]

Thank you for the offer Tony, however I opened up the standard set of clocks last night and found that the optic circuitry board in the KPH clocks is damaged beyond repair, so the cable converter idea wouldnt work.

Im on the hunt for a decent second hand one to try out with a trimmed optic piece.

I still want to keep my MPH clocks, but at least this will see me a step in the right direction should it work. 

Im fairly sure I read somewhere that an aftermarket ignition will do away with the limiter.

And long term it'll probably give me a nice selection of holed pistons to look back at...

[Hendo]

So the original speedo on the left, and the MPH one I fitted on the right -

You can see the electronic gizmo on the side of the speedo which is the speed restrictor -

My Posh Firm Moto box was meant to replicate this being there but it would seem it isn't working -

And you can see in this one the metal tab just behind the numbers which moves between the 2 black optics on the right as the speedo turns. This is the tab that needs trimmed back.

Unfortunately the circuitry board in my original speedo is broken so I have another one on the way, with the tab already trimmed courtesy of a member on the TZR forum.

I'm going to have to lose the MPH speedo for now, but hopefully it will allow me to rev past 12,000RPM.

[Tony B]

3 hours ago, Hendo said:

Good news on sourcing a replacement.

This one looks a pretty straightforward repair if you run into further problems.

[Hendo]

Winning.

Thanks to Warwick off the TZR forum I have put another speedo along with its electronic gubbins into my bike and bingo! It now revs past 12,000RPM.

However blasting it through the gears, it is all done and dusted by 12,750RPM, its not creating anymore power and feels like its ran out of puff.

Ideas anyone? Ignition? (4 degree advance key fitted) Jetting? Time for the dyno?

[Martin77]

All done by 12750rpm... what do you want it to do, rev to 15000? chances are it's peaking at about 11,500 (true rpm) and then revving on to about 12ish past peak. That's it's natural powerband, not a problem. Anyway, the real problem is the 8k-10k bit, and you know how to solve that already... If you just want it to rev out even more for the sake of it, try removing the advance key. It'll be worse everywhere else though.